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Post by omgcrew on Aug 25, 2008 9:32:29 GMT -9
This was posted at the hunting for bison cache. Along with this info from another cacher. we got muggled by Joel Hubbard from the Nordic Ski group....he helps to maintain the shooting range. He was not happy at all there is any cache anywhere near the range...especially when climbing is involved. He agreed to let it stay if moved down within non climbing reach and on the back....but still not happy with it anywhere near there. He does acknowledge that it is public property...but would really prefer that no people that aren't involved with shooting be anywhere near the equipment at any time.
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Post by oleruns on Aug 25, 2008 12:45:37 GMT -9
I still don't know why they shoot the same direction as the road and the new big soccer fields?
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Post by NorthWes on Aug 25, 2008 22:16:26 GMT -9
That IS funny... a note, not just a missing cache! At first I thought it was my multi over by Fish & Game HQ named 'Bison Hunt'... but then I won't hide on electrical devices. Spider holes you bet... but not juice boxes.
As a long-time range user, it's best for folks not to be in the impact zone (or anywhere downrange of the firing line, for that matter) whether the range is in active use (doh) or not. Lots of lead particulates in that zone... and if you're susceptible to heavy metal contamination you don't need any extra exposure to lead dust.
As for that range's particular orientation - I'm told it's all about the light. Seems the prior range was at a wicked twist for good use of that low-angle summer sun... but the new one's awesome for solar lighting purposes (as in, best light for high contrast on the target). Naturally, that's a bit of a moot point in December, eh?
As for the impact zone - here's what I can tell you about 22cal rimfire ammo - hazardous to a distance of up to a mile downrange. Sure, that's a dandy backstop, but it's guaranteed someone's gonna get a round over the top of it from time to time. Just look at the ceiling in any indoor range - lots of strikes up there (wierd... but true). When operating the Pendau Known-Distance range on Ft Richardson (which is out of sight south of the weigh station, pointing into the mountain) the range officer must 'cease fire' on the line when aircraft are 'visible overhead'. (Incidentally - when I asked if that included heavies taking off from Anchorage Int'l Airport the instructor just chanted the rule back at me. So - I kept AIA to my back when running the line on Pendau...). So, maybe you don't want to park in the stadium lot when firing's underway on the new range...
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Post by omgcrew on Aug 26, 2008 12:21:37 GMT -9
The cache in question was not hid near electical devices.
I think I am going to go out there and put up a range closed due to saftey concerns sign.
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Post by themaninstripes on Aug 26, 2008 14:33:25 GMT -9
So, what cache was this?
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Post by li1gray on Aug 26, 2008 14:34:58 GMT -9
Well pretty funny is right! I am sure most cachers would not be out there when they are using the range in the 1st place! Besides are we sure they would be able to hit a moving target, the targets move enough when they are out of breath skiing around the loop in the first place. Yep on Northwes comments about the "so called backstop" Go look at any indoor Archery Range roof you get the same thing. It isn't the kids shooting out the lights!
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FLYRFN
Silver Cacher
Posts: 180
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Post by FLYRFN on Aug 26, 2008 16:09:40 GMT -9
The cache name is "Hunting for Bison" in Kincaid park.
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powmia
Silver Cacher
Caches Found/Hidden xxxx/x
Posts: 208
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Post by powmia on Aug 26, 2008 20:43:38 GMT -9
That IS funny... a note, not just a missing cache! At first I thought it was my multi over by Fish & Game HQ named 'Bison Hunt'... but then I won't hide on electrical devices. Spider holes you bet... but not juice boxes. ... I have found a few caches on power boxes here in Washington. I found one cache in an underground electrical junction box. It was floating in water and I could see all the wires beneath the water. I logged it as a find, not able to sign the log due to it being destroyed by water, and recommended maintenance as did other finders. I have found very few ammo cans. Most of the cache containers are lock and lock boxes, tupperware containers, and many, many, many, many, micros. I guess there are more signs here.
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FLYRFN
Silver Cacher
Posts: 180
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Post by FLYRFN on Aug 26, 2008 20:59:08 GMT -9
Maybe we should all call the phone # and ask him to pencil our names on the log page. ;D
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Post by ladybugkids on Aug 26, 2008 21:03:23 GMT -9
Geocachers have a great relationship with the Municipality of Anchorage (MOA) Parks and Recreation Department. I think it would be a good idea to just laugh this one off, good-naturedly move the cache up range of the range, and carry on. The cache has been out there long enough for the area's "heavy hitters" to find it in it's original state and "get" the "Hunting for Bison" theme.
We're in good stead with the MOA and BLM, but in a very tenuous situation with Chugach State Park, so going out of our way to "make nice" and keep a low profile will (hopefully) go a long way toward being allowed to play the game with fewer restrictions than imposed in many other states.
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Post by omgcrew on Aug 27, 2008 7:50:57 GMT -9
This incident has changed my stance on the whole ski only trail issue. This winter I will no longer care if a trail is marked as ski only I will post hole right down the middle of it. I will NOT do it as a geocacher though. I respect the game and the people too much. But the whole attitude of the its public land but dont use it thing drives me nuts. And this has pushed me off the fence I was once on.
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Post by saidbystacy on Aug 27, 2008 8:49:16 GMT -9
I agree with LBK in this instance. Maintaining good relations with managers of the parks and wild areas of our state is key to the continuation of the freedoms we currently enjoy as geocachers. I would like to have local and state agencies continue to see geocachers as an asset to our community rather than adversaries.
I really wish the Nordic Ski Club had more of a "let's work together" spirit rather than what seems to me to be a rather territorial attitude over some areas of public land. I recognize that over the years the NSAA has put in a lot of time, money and hours to establish and maintain these trails, but there has to be a better way for us to work together so both parties can enjoy our respective sports without creating enmity.
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Post by oleruns on Aug 27, 2008 11:36:55 GMT -9
Remember that 99.9% of the people pay a chunk of money to use a trail system and are not involved in the politics of a ski coach or a few people. So I would not post-hole just to get back at a few people.
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Post by omgcrew on Aug 27, 2008 11:48:52 GMT -9
This has always been an issue with me. Its not just a few people. But this just pushed me off the fence.
If I groomed the sidewalk in my neighborhood could I close it off to only snowmachines?
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Post by ladybugkids on Aug 27, 2008 15:05:28 GMT -9
If this were just any part of the Kincaid Park trail system, I would feel differently about access. However, the request for us not to have a cache came from a stakeholder for a very specialized part of the park...the biathlon range. To access the cache, one needed to step up on sheet metal not designed to routinely support human traffic which could lead to permanent damage. I can't remember if MTBoy or I retrieved the cache when we found it, but I do remember thinking I needed to tread carefully to avoid damaging anything (yes, I need to lose weight). A lot of volunteer efforts went into relocating the biathlon range, so a lot of people feel pride and "ownership" toward it. I personally don't use the range, but I respect that sense of ownership demonstrated by people who have worked to make a difference. In retrospect, at the time I found the cache, I hadn't considered the implications of a cacher bushwhacking straight in from the road due to lack of local trail knowledge and walking right into the back of the range during live fire. Live fire when the range is in use is not continuous as runners or skiers shoot in between laps, so one may not have the tip off that the range is in use if they show up in between rounds and did not come by way of the trails where the range flag is flown.
I do take issue with the threat to posthole groomed ski trails. I've bought trail pins and made additional donations to the Anchorage and Fairbanks Nordic ski clubs for 19 seasons and my dollars go toward maintaining the world class ski trail systems in both locations. Yes, the trails do have limited use...in the winter, when groomed, they are maintained for use by skiers. I've already posted why postholes are not good for skiers on ski trails and dogs on mushing trails, so I won't repeat that here...just at a high lever, the issues are more than aesthetic...they are safety related.
During breakup when the trails are soft, all users are asked to stay off to preserve the flat surface. In the summer and fall, however, the ski trails are open to horses, bikes, runners, walkers, and bears. I think overall, the ski trails are open to all users more months of the year than not. Also, there are tons more miles of multiuse trails open year round than are designated ski only when groomed.
Re: grooming one's sidewalk for snowmachine use...more power to the person who can work out that arrangement with the municipality. The Nordic Ski Club of Anchorage has worked in partnership with the Municipality of Anchorage Parks and Recreation department and other departments to designate ski only and multiuse trails. The equestrians have worked to have Ruth Arcand Park and other trail systems designated to include horse use. Other user groups can work out other land uses as well.
I really don't think the ski club has an issue with geocaching, yet. However, they are a MUCH bigger force in Anchorage recreation (they were a major player in getting the airport expansion project killed...other than Oleruns, how many other cachers got involved?) than geocaching ever will be (heck, we can't even organize into a nonprofit group) and if they get bent about something, MOA will hear about it and I can almost guarantee geocachers would lose. Please, let's NOT go there.
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Post by omgcrew on Aug 27, 2008 16:08:11 GMT -9
The cache in question has now been archived for saftey considerations. My apologies for placing a cache in such a dangerous location.
As far as post holing on groomed trais goes I will not be doing that. I was going to wait for a response and use the laugh it off / lets work together response but decided against it.
If I have upset anybody please take this as an apology as that was certainly not my intention. Take care.
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Post by ladybugkids on Aug 27, 2008 16:52:11 GMT -9
No apology needed...this thread has stayed VERY civil compared to some of the threads that go down in flames in the gc.com forums. One of the purposes of boards like this is for there to be the free exchange of ideas and information. In retrospect, my last post in this tread may have been over the top...I have a lot of old baggage and many bruises from multiuse trail issues wherever I've lived in Arizona and Alaska. If others have thoughts on this topic, let's keep this thread alive.
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Post by themaninstripes on Aug 28, 2008 16:44:40 GMT -9
I'll go postholing with you. Just for the hell of it.
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Post by FrostG1anT on Aug 28, 2008 18:12:02 GMT -9
(heck, we can't even organize into a nonprofit group) I think LBK might be onto something here. Perhaps it is time to organize our loose knit group into a real non-profit. There are lots of things we as geocachers have done to better our community and improve our game. Currently we have no voice as we are not even a unified group. With much of the activities that some of us our putting time and efforts into such things as Trail Watch, helping rid our parks of graffiti and trying to lessen the homeless problem as well the CITO efforts we make and social get-togethers we have. Being able to have a unified presence would go a long way toward being able to build the relationships we currently have with Land Managers who have looked favorably on our sport and open doors for further and future relationships.
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FLYRFN
Silver Cacher
Posts: 180
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Post by FLYRFN on Aug 28, 2008 19:08:38 GMT -9
2005 was the last time becoming organized was brought up, geocaching has grown alot since then!
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Post by oleruns on Aug 28, 2008 19:17:54 GMT -9
Sonds like a pizza event just to talk about it anyway... Hey gotta go but please let me know when and where - Ole
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Post by FrostG1anT on Aug 30, 2008 13:27:08 GMT -9
Sounds like a pizza event just to talk about it anyway... Hey gotta go but please let me know when and where - Ole GC1FQVT Tuesday September 16, 2008 at 6:00pm at Guido's PizzaI hope everyone can make it. Please post a will attend on the cache page so we can get a rough count in case we need to up the reservation count.
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