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Post by knappling on Jan 1, 2009 9:07:58 GMT -9
Lately I have tried to find many caches and it is hard if I don't know whether or not they are winter friendly. I would appreciate it if cachers would take some time to add attributes to their cache listings.
Is there a reason not to include attributes? The only reasons I can think of is not wanting to make a cache easier than intended .
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 1, 2009 10:12:36 GMT -9
I agree that attributes should be applied liberally and accurately to a cache page. Many of the attributes don't say anything about the specific cache hide like the "available 24/7," "takes less than 1 hour," and "kid friendly" attributes, but are very useful to visiting cachers who don't have much local knowledge. Even the "winter friendly" attribute doesn't give away much about the cache hide. While it usually means the cache is hidden above the snow level, that would be in incorrect assumption for about half of my winter friendly hides. Winter friendly just means the cache can be accessed and found by thinking like a cacher without excavating a 1/4-acre of snow to find the cache. I'll also recommend taking a shovel if digging may be required in a maintenance log or on the cache page and provide a good clue. Afterall, most of my caches are placed with the intent of bringing someone to a new and unique place and I'd rather they spent more time enjoying the area than beating the bushes looking for the cache. Also, if you use attributes, cachers can filter pocket queries on them. A visitor (or local) might run a pocket query for all "winter friendly" caches in Anchorage and if a cacher's cache doesn't have the attribute, it won't make the list. It doesn't appear that many people have picked up on it, but there is a lot more information about a cache hide tucked away in the handicacher ratings when used on a cache page: .
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Broccili
Bronze Cacher
Vehicle TB212QR "Powerstroke"
Posts: 67
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Post by Broccili on Jan 1, 2009 20:49:18 GMT -9
Attributes certainly make it easy to figure out what's available with 20+ inches of snow on the ground, in sub-zero temps.
I use GSAK to organize my caches... and then I run a filter for caches within 100 miles that I have NOT found, but have been found (by someone else) since 1 Nov 08.
This cuts my database of nearly 1300 caches in GSAK down to 530... then those get loaded into my GPSr.
You won't get ALL the winter friendly caches, but you will get caches that were found with snow on the ground.
Of course, I don't have many logged finds, so I have lots of options.
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Post by davemeister on Jan 2, 2009 7:22:14 GMT -9
I totally agree with the posts, in fact I have just taken to loading ONLY winter friendly cache attributes. It saves a lot of time for me looking for a cache that is totally buried. One noteable cache in the valley has no attributes at all on her caches and wondered why no one hit them during the recent solstice/confluence event. I sent her an e-mail telling her why I didn't hit them...not sure if she took the hint though.
Really, the attributes are a great idea and really don't give away the cache. I really liked the addition of the flashlight attribute lately. Great for night cache searches.
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Post by saidbystacy on Jan 2, 2009 11:16:24 GMT -9
I agree that using accurate attributes is necessary to the cache page. But unfortunately many cachers make attempts on winter-unfriendly caches despite it being noted in the attributes as such. I've seen a few folks post an unfound log and suggest that the cache is missing.
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Post by tinman4x on Jan 2, 2009 17:10:03 GMT -9
I usually end up using the attributes after I've gone out and been unsucessful. I DNF'd one just yesterday that was not winter friendly. It doesn't mean I am done with it nor do I think it's missing. It just means I didn't find it that day and I'll try again under different conditions.
All in all the attributes are very helpful. I doubt I'll just give up searching for non-winter friendly caches. The attributes just help not feel so bad over yet another DNF.
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Post by Valerieseaker on Jan 3, 2009 1:57:12 GMT -9
But how am I to know if my cache is winter friendly? Other than the obvious hanging-in-a-tree or under-something-that-keeps-snow-off types. I don't think Bernie and Lulu's or Zara's Place are winter friendly, but people have found them. So does that make them winter friendly? Bewitched apparently isn't friendly in any season, but cohofive recently dug it up.
I do like Broccili does, except only go about 20 miles, and found in the last 7 days. Then I hope for a nice trail to follow.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 3, 2009 10:28:35 GMT -9
But how am I to know if my cache is winter friendly? Other than the obvious hanging-in-a-tree or under-something-that-keeps-snow-off types. I agree making the "winter friendly" call is a bit subjective, but I think it can be boiled down to a few criteria: 1. Is the container hidden on, at the base of, next to, inside an fairly obvious feature in the area when the EPE is considered? Specifically...is the number of potential hide locations limited? 2. Does the provided clue help narrow down the search area? 3. If on the ground, is the container size large enough that it can be "detected" using a ski pole, backcountry shovel, walking pole, etc? I intentionally didn't list a metal detector because I consider one to be "specialized equipment." Alternatively, I think it is also fair to use the "winter friendly" icon and state clearly on the cache page that in the winter, the difficulty goes up by X stars if the cache owner doesn't want to be "constrained" by 1 through 3 above. I really appreciate it when a cache hider gives me enough accurate information (terrain/difficulty/attributes/hints/cautionary notes in the description/recommended equipment) on the cache page to let me know what I am getting into ahead of time. I'm not saying a really evil urban hide needs to be given away on the cache page, but if you're going to take me into the Chugach front range for several mile ski trip, please give me a chance of success of finding your cache within a reasonable amount of time. Others' thoughts?
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 3, 2009 10:41:15 GMT -9
On the other hand, maybe I'm overexplaining things...in my opinion, "winter friendly" caches are placed in locations using containers that a relatively experienced cacher can locate and identify in a reasonable amount of time using normal winter tools of the trade (ski poles/walking poles in the frontcountry and adding a shovel for the backcountry). "Winter unfriendly" caches are usually small, micro, or nano containers placed in a relatively nondescript location with any number of several hidy holes under the snow (including critter burrows) to choose from. Requiring skis, snowshoes, dogs, or snowmobiles to access the cache does not make a cache winter unfriendly.
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powmia
Silver Cacher
Caches Found/Hidden xxxx/x
Posts: 208
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Post by powmia on Jan 3, 2009 16:55:28 GMT -9
On the other hand, maybe I'm overexplaining things...in my opinion, "winter friendly" caches are placed in locations using containers that a relatively experienced cacher can locate and identify in a reasonable amount of time using normal winter tools of the trade (ski poles/walking poles in the frontcountry and adding a shovel for the backcountry). However, if one wants a cache bad enough and is willing to try for it anytime it might be considered "anytime friendly". Your cache at the Denali Viewpoint North parking lot was such a cache for recray and myself. powmia found Eagles' Panoramic Viewpoint (Traditional Cache) Found May 12, 2006 3:15PM. Hang the snowshoes....full speed ahead. Waded the last 500 feet or so through waist deep or more snow to get to the cache. Used trekking poles and shovels to probe the area. Located the cache.
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ak-dsp
Bronze Cacher
Posts: 27
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Post by ak-dsp on Jan 6, 2009 11:18:41 GMT -9
From what I have been reading in these posts (which I sincerely enjoy and find interesting), each person is providing a subjective opinion regarding the attribute's intended discriptive purpose. Perhaps there is a more objective definition available?
As an example, I take 'Winter Friendly' to mean either above the snow, or sheltered in some way as to make it 'findable' by a determined cacher (whatever that means). The difficulty and terrain indicators speak to the skill level expected. Given the fluctuating accuracy of some of the coords, probing the snow in a 30 foot radius with a stick at 10 below zero is not my idea of a good time, ie., not 'friendly'.
By the same token 'Kid Friendly', to me, means fun to find, relatively easy, and, above all ... safe.
So, is there, or is there not, a clear definition of the attribute icons?
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powmia
Silver Cacher
Caches Found/Hidden xxxx/x
Posts: 208
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Post by powmia on Jan 6, 2009 15:25:09 GMT -9
Given the fluctuating accuracy of some of the coords, probing the snow in a 30 foot radius with a stick at 10 below zero is not my idea of a good time, ie., not 'friendly'. Ahhhhhh but think of the bragging rights when you post the log for the find. ;D ;D
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ak-dsp
Bronze Cacher
Posts: 27
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Post by ak-dsp on Jan 6, 2009 15:55:26 GMT -9
Now understand, I didn't say I wouldn't do it, and I have ... recently! (as in 'SOON - GC1KC5F') But after a while it's like flogging yourself with knotted ropes. So, maybe there are times when self abuse is a good thing? You are right about the bragging rights ... and the satisfaction at reading some of the logs that followed mine.
All kidding aside, there is nothing that prevents a person from going after a non-winter friendly cache, but if it says 'winter friendly', I believe is should be, well ... friendly.
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powmia
Silver Cacher
Caches Found/Hidden xxxx/x
Posts: 208
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Post by powmia on Jan 6, 2009 18:35:11 GMT -9
That is correct. If it states winter friendly, I best not be digging through feet of ice/snow to retrieve it.
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Post by NorthWes on Jan 7, 2009 12:13:19 GMT -9
Now understand, I didn't say I wouldn't do it, and I have ... recently! (as in 'SOON - GC1KC5F') But after a while it's like flogging yourself with knotted ropes. So, maybe there are times when self abuse is a good thing? You are right about the bragging rights ... and the satisfaction at reading some of the logs that followed mine. All kidding aside, there is nothing that prevents a person from going after a non-winter friendly cache, but if it says 'winter friendly', I believe is should be, well ... friendly. LOL! Couldn't agree more about the winter-friendly attribute! You asked a great question regarding attribute definitions - and I've looked around on the geocaching.com website in vain for any broader set of definitions other than the attribute icon's text title. However, I was surprised to discover the website refers to the snowflake icon as 'Available During Winter' - which may not mean the same thing as what you & I perceive to be 'winter-friendly'. We could have some fun expanding the definition of those icons beyond their title...
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Post by Valerieseaker on Jan 7, 2009 14:43:35 GMT -9
I was surprised to discover the website refers to the snowflake icon as 'Available During Winter' - which may not mean the same thing as what you & I perceive to be 'winter-friendly'. We could have some fun expanding the definition of those icons beyond their title... With enough effort, ALL of ours (except the Portage Glacier Visitor's Center one) are "Available During Winter". So we need "Can find without digging when there's 4 feet of snow on the ground", "Quick enough to find when it's 10 below", and "If your arm is long enough, you don't even have to get out of your warm car" attributes.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 7, 2009 16:34:39 GMT -9
Given the fluctuating accuracy of some of the coords, probing the snow in a 30 foot radius with a stick at 10 below zero is not my idea of a good time, ie., not 'friendly'. It's not my idea of friendly at 60 above with no snow on the ground either. That is correct. If it states winter friendly, I best not be digging through feet of ice/snow to retrieve it. LOL! Couldn't agree more about the winter-friendly attribute! You asked a great question regarding attribute definitions - and I've looked around on the geocaching.com website in vain for any broader set of definitions other than the attribute icon's text title. However, I was surprised to discover the website refers to the snowflake icon as 'Available During Winter' - which may not mean the same thing as what you & I perceive to be 'winter-friendly'. We could have some fun expanding the definition of those icons beyond their title... Hmmm...mayhaps I should reevaluate my "available in winter" caches and either remove the "available in winter" icon or bump the terrain up to 5-stars to reflect the special equipment required (metal detector/shovel).
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 7, 2009 16:36:53 GMT -9
So, maybe there are times when self abuse is a good thing? Ahem...questions like that are probably better answered in the forums way over there .
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Post by NorthWes on Jan 8, 2009 16:59:12 GMT -9
'Available in Winter' means just that - as in, the cache site can be accessed even in the winter. Doesn't necessarily mean finding the cache will be fun once you're on site, however... Cygnet Lake Spring, an absolutely lovely hide placed by Ladybug Kids up north and west of Talkeetna, features a cache listing leaving no doubts as to what you'll need to get to the hide location - and it's definitely 'Available in Winter'. Once you're on site it's apparent the cache was hidden in a very 'Winter Friendly' fashion as well. (I'll put in the disclaimer that it took me two visits to this relatively remote but beautiful spot to 'find' the cache, thanks to a flood of muggles showing up on the first trip). As at the Cygnet Lake Spring cache, excellent coordinates, a good cache page and a large cache container go a long way towards making a cache marked 'Available in Winter' a cache that's eminently 'Winter Friendly'!
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Post by NorthWes on Jan 9, 2009 9:59:03 GMT -9
I was surprised to discover the website refers to the snowflake icon as 'Available During Winter' - which may not mean the same thing as what you & I perceive to be 'winter-friendly'. We could have some fun expanding the definition of those icons beyond their title... With enough effort, ALL of ours (except the Portage Glacier Visitor's Center one) are "Available During Winter". So we need "Can find without digging when there's 4 feet of snow on the ground", "Quick enough to find when it's 10 below", and "If your arm is long enough, you don't even have to get out of your warm car" attributes. Oooooh - valerieseaker - you've got my mental picture maker running in high gear! I'll have to see about making up some of these...
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ak-dsp
Bronze Cacher
Posts: 27
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Post by ak-dsp on Jan 17, 2009 11:32:20 GMT -9
Sorry about getting back on to this thread a bit late.
IMHO, given that ,'available in winter' or 'winter friendly' can mean different things to people with different skills, levels of commitment, etc., Perhaps the description should serve to amplify and clarify the setting of the attribute.
If you need to ski into the cache area, or require snowshoes, simply state it. If it is a micro, etc. and above snow level, a simple 'not on ground.' should be sufficient.
If the cache will most likely be buried by snow, then it is, in my opinion, not a winter cache.
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Post by li1gray on Jan 27, 2009 11:18:41 GMT -9
If I can put my 2 cents in here I agree with the SOON cache I got back after the warm spell (spent some vacation time in MN caching and visiting family!) And maybe my idea of winter friendly is different but above snow level or large enough that it stands out and you know where to find it in the description is what I am looking for. I had a long look for the SOON cache and there was NO snow.
But really it isn't that hard to go back and modify the attributes if your a cache owner. I know it is hard to determine what is the best, but I am sure others will let you know in your log entries!
When I take new cachers out with me I tell them look at 50 caches before you start hiding them and that should give them some ideas as to the type of hides and what you and others are expecting as well.
Attributes sure make the game much easier and faster when you spend an hour looking for a cache that isn't there and not archived or marked with a Maintenance cross gets me sometimes too but that is another area. MN had a lot of these! Can't figure how King Boreas can maintain over 1900 caches and I have a hard time keeping up with the few I have here.
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Post by alaskarambo on Mar 12, 2009 17:28:11 GMT -9
My idea of the attiribute is "available in winter" as in, you can get it.....no chipping ice, no special equipment.
I don't assume that anything in Alaska from November to March is "friendly" and gear myself "thus so". When I set out to Cache I assume I will be digging in snow because snow covers every thing in this God Forsaken State 8 months out of the year.....
Add to the "only things certain in life:" Death, Taxes and Snow in Alaska.
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Post by FrostG1anT on Mar 12, 2009 20:25:42 GMT -9
I don't think anyone forsook this place, I love Alaska, wouldn't be here otherwise.
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Post by alaskarambo on Mar 12, 2009 21:43:01 GMT -9
(O/T) Just an expression Greg, I wouldnt be here either...I will live no where else...well maybe Arizona when the joints start to freeze up when Im 99!
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