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Post by NorthWes on Jan 9, 2009 9:57:10 GMT -9
... (off topic slightly) You guys are tough. Metaphorically speaking, I picked up a thread which turned out to be a rope, and while hoping there would be some pulling and giving, when the slack ran out, I found the other end attached to train going in the opposite direction. No problem with that, the cool thing is that a person can just let go of the rope. I'll probably pick up another thread now and again, but now I'll be a little more adept at anticipating the unanticipated. That's one of the best "metaphorical" comments about threads in forums I've ever read... folks shouldn't let the strength of expressed convictions about this (or any other) topic make them shy to participate in the discussions (I know AKDSP's not shy - but what about all those who peeked in to read but didn't comment???) Forums exist not just to congratulate each other on milestones reached, but to exchange ideas and to educate for the purpose of building each other up to better 'performance' in various aspects of the game, without making people feel 'stupid' or 'picked on'. Readers should note that participants were able to range widely across this topic without getting too emotionally worked up about it - maintaining civility during a discussion is part of our stated purpose in the entire forum. I'm looking forward to the cup of coffee sometime out there with you, AKDSP... I'd like to continue that train of thought about the geocacher life cycle - it bears further exploration (if for no other reason than to have fun understanding quirky behaviors). And thanks for your questions and discussion here!
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 9, 2009 11:02:05 GMT -9
(off topic slightly) You guys are tough. Metaphorically speaking, I picked up a thread which turned out to be a rope, and while hoping there would be some pulling and giving. When the slack ran out, I found the other end attached to train going in the opposite direction. No problem with that, the cool thing is that a person can just let go of the rope. I'll probably pick up another thread now and again, but in the future, hopefully I'll be a little more adept at anticipating the unanticipated. Help me understand your thoughts on this a bit more. The forums should be a welcoming place for ideas and information to be exchanged. Where do you feel the idea exchange became derailed and you felt you were being pulled by a rope? I feel the exchange went well once we got past the cache removal allegations. You asked clarifying questions and they were responded to. Based on reading and participating in the gc.com forums, my experience is there is actually very little pulling and giving. I know I have my heels dug in on the electrical safety issue because people (cachers and noncachers) more knowledgeable than me about electrical distribution have said it's not a good idea to poke around certain equipment. No one, either in these forums or over in the worldwide gc.com forums has spoken with the same authority/relevant experience with a counterargument. Note, also, that I have tried not to "impose" my way of participating in geocaching...I share my position and its basis and recognize others will choose to do their own thing. For example, I have shared that I will be redoing my electrically related caches in Fairbanks and Valdez and will approach others' electrically related hides differently than I have in the past. If I was really feeling empowered to be the cache police or felt there was widespread immanent threat to life or limb, I'd be writting "Should Be Archived" logs for caches I have concerns about. I have no plans to do that.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 9, 2009 11:28:01 GMT -9
99.9% of the skirts are at the base of a light pole. The skirt is really just a decorative piece of aluminum, tin, galvanized steel, etc. designed to not see the unsightly bolts on a mount. They may hide the access plate for the electrical as well, but those are USUALLY closed with screws/bolts, etc. So the skirt is a piece of conductive material (except for the plastic variety) in contact with a metal pole that could be "hot." There have been several occasions when after I've raised the skirt on a light poll, I've seen bare wires (other than the copper ground wire) inside the pole itself. I keep trying to picture the steps I can take to safely be able to raise a skirt and retrieve/replace a cache without coming in contact with metal that could have electrical potential. One saving grace for all of us is that we tend to run around in shoes that are good insulators even during the summer months. Things are a bit different during caching runs when it's raining and there is standing water at the base of the pole.
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Post by Valerieseaker on Jan 9, 2009 11:46:25 GMT -9
I have been dong it for about nine months, and I see that you have been at it since 2007. I joined in 2007, but didn't have a GPS until last June. My first find was on June 5. I do know what "long of tooth" means. Sometimes my sense of humor is a bit off. I knew Blazing Bryan wasn't a LPC because of the logs. But - the main question - would I lift the skirt if I hadn't read the logs, or would lift other skirts? I would. But if something was amiss, which hopefully I would notice before I was shocked or electrocuted, I wouldn't have. I have never liked the big green electrical boxes and don't like those caches. When I was a kid, it was drilled into me to stay off and away from them. The few caches I have found that were on electrical boxes, there were other places the cache could have been hid. Rarely is the green box all alone with nothing around it. I know some of my hides have not been in clever locations, so I shouldn't be too critical. I think the main purpose of the article and thread is to be aware that there could be danger. So rather than doing the quick placement of a magnetic key-lock on a electrical box, perhaps hide the cache in the nearby tree. Take time to think if this is an appropriate cache location (and yes, I am working on this myself.)
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ak-dsp
Bronze Cacher
Posts: 27
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Post by ak-dsp on Jan 9, 2009 15:44:46 GMT -9
This may sound off topic, but it's not.
From a firm in Australia, you can purchase Carbon Offset Credits to cover the amount of methane in the gas your cat passes per month ($8.00).
We are being told the Earth is warming and polar bears are dying due to our carbon emissions to the point of impending doom, and yet the evidence shows the planet is cooling, and surveys indicate there are more polar bears than ever before.
If you ask an aircraft engineer if your flight will absolutely make it from here to Seattle, he/she will not be able to tell you what you want to hear. If you ask a structural engineer if the bridge you drive over every day, with certainty, will be standing tomorrow you would get a similar answer. So why in the world if you ask an electrical engineer if you put your hand on a light pole could you be electrocuted, would you expect any other answer?
Planes crash, and bridges fail, and a person may have been shocked somewhere by touching a lamp post, but in the real world it doesn't happen often enough to worry about.
Putting permissions and rules issues aside, and the fact that a person may feel urban caches are boring and LPCs are worse, the fact that a blogger with some basic web design skills tells you that your life is at risk from electrocution every time you peek under the skirt of a light pole is kakka (can we say Kakka?).
It doesn't matter that "he knows electricity", or that someone has a buddy or a relative that can shoot lightning from his nether-parts. Millions of light poles and tens of thousands of geocachers and none of them with frizzed-out hair are reality.
Sooo we stop calling it global warming, because that sounds a little goofy in light of the facts, and say the climate is changing (duh!). But we are still told that automobiles are the cause, and that we need to tax them. Then comes proof that cows, and other animals that chew cud emit more greenhouse gasses than cars - do they admit that cars are not the problem? Noooo, they decide it might be wise to tax the cows for the average number of farts they may emit in any given month. And we believe it.
Why is that on-topic? Because it's the same mind set.
So, LBK, I have an idea. When it warms up a bit why don't we spend an afternoon (or morning ... or both) doing some serious caching? We can hit the woods and get few ammo cans, then pop back into town and pick up a couple of LPCs. We can have a good breakfast, pizza, whatever, and if we get shocked in the process, well who wants to live forever, anyway? And valerieseaker and northwes, you are welcome too! Any cache can be boring if you do it alone.
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Post by NorthWes on Jan 9, 2009 17:42:56 GMT -9
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ak-dsp
Bronze Cacher
Posts: 27
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Post by ak-dsp on Jan 9, 2009 18:52:44 GMT -9
Northwes- I misspoke, or more correctly, 'didn't spoke'. If a real caching situation evolves of this ... of course you're welcome!
According to one of the posts in the first link from Northwes, God has made Himself manifest on earth in the form of Light Poles (Now appropriately accentuated). I know this is true because I just read it on the Internet. Does this mean that we should treat LPCs ... with a little more respect?
And if I am struck by lightning for having said such a thing will it be reported as the first geocaching electrocution associated with lamp posts?
Lest anyone think I don't take my faith seriously, I do. But I know that God loves the absurd - both me and my post - at least as much as He loves the holier-than-thou. (I was not referring to any Alaskans who may or may not be geocachers, and who may or may not be posting to this thread.)
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ak-dsp
Bronze Cacher
Posts: 27
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Post by ak-dsp on Jan 10, 2009 5:24:54 GMT -9
(off-topic) Northwes - we finally got the other three links to display, Hamster Caches - works for me, but where do you put the log? Have got to start thinking outside the box.
When we first started geocacheing, we found that some of the regular caches contained considerable water. Duh! I see now they were SNOWBALL Caches. Only in Alaska - Go figure.
I just notice that this thread has set some records:
Most Viewed and Most Posted To
Congrats to LBK for this electrifying topic!
While we are on the subject:
[LBK:] Help me understand your thoughts on this a bit more. The forums should be a welcoming place for ideas and information to be exchanged. Where do you feel the idea exchange became derailed and you felt you were being pulled by a rope?
'Pulled' by a rope ?... I'm afraid it was a 'tad' more violent than that. I was not referring to you specifically, as you guys tend to 'hunt in packs', but your response to, I believe, northwes' reply is a good example. You start out asking me to 'help you understand', and then follow by planting your position firmly and immovably in the ground. There is no room for real discussion, no give and take. Believe me when I say that I am not being critical of you or anyone else that has posted here. I was just not expecting it .... that was the train.
When I made the earlier comment about school yards, and about how now they are termed attractive nuisances, it was in reference to the blogger and his, IMHO, gross exaggerations concerning safety.
Kids used to play in their school yards on weekends, and after classes, but now, because of over regulation and liability issues they are discouraged from doing so. I never said a word about placing caches on school grounds. It was simply an analogy about over-regulation, and how it sucks the life out of a thing. And I believe you knew it. ... that was the train.
No big thing, we are who we are. I can deal with it, and when all is said and done, I enjoyed it. It just surprised me, that's all. It won't next time.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 10, 2009 6:44:10 GMT -9
I was not referring to you specifically, as you tend to 'hunt in packs', but your response to, I believe, valerieseaker's reply is a good example. You start out asking me to 'help you understand', and then follow by planting your position firmly and immovably in the ground. The is no room for discussion, no give and take. Believe me when I say that I am not being critical of you or anyone else that has posted here. I just was not expecting it .... that was the train. I still don't understand. Isn't one supposed to provide their opinion in the forums? It's not like any thread has gotten locked so it can't continue to be posted to. There is always the opportunity for someone to post their thoughts and follow-up thoughts. Your stated positions have appeared to be firm and immovable as well, but I haven't felt like another train went by on the adjacent track. I wish more people would post their thoughts...290+ reads of this thread (and the count doesn't increment when people click on "30 most viewed"), yet only six (if I counted correctly) cachers participated in the discussion. Surely more than the seven of us have an opinion on the subject. "Hunting in packs:" If you are referring to me caching with the skijorgeohounds, it's a lot of fun and I'll eventually dredge up some photos and reply to NorthWes' caching with pets synergy thread. On the other hand, if you are inferring to some people who posted to the thread commiserated on our responses, that simply is not the case. Some of us have talked/written offline for the past couple of years about some of the issues that have recently come up in these forums, but the recent flurry of activity is not coordinated. No master conspiracy, no underground, no surreptitious meetings in midtown or conference calls to plan the next posted responses. Pizza...Moose's Tooth and an IPA?
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Post by davemeister on Jan 10, 2009 6:58:02 GMT -9
OK, I'll jump into the foray. I agree with pretty much what every one has said in these posts. There is always two and usually more sides to a story. For me however, I agree with Brocilli...although, however, I'll sign the log and take it off my list too.
Off topic a little...the cache off Dowling in a "mosquito infested swamp" was mine. My first cache...I placed it there because it was a relatively new area. I was surprised to see a piece of junk in area that was relatively pristine....yeah right...until I found a homeless city months later. Anyhow at least folks can agree to disagree.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 10, 2009 7:04:01 GMT -9
I just notice that this thread has set some records: Most Viewed and Most Posted ToWhere do you see those statistics? The 2008 Alaska Geocoin thread has twice the the posts and three times the reads as this thread as of this morning.
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ak-dsp
Bronze Cacher
Posts: 27
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Post by ak-dsp on Jan 10, 2009 7:05:44 GMT -9
By packs, I was referring to northwes, though he has lightened up a bit. Perhaps the minimal activity, and lack of participation in the forums is symptomatic of the way they are conducted. If you don't agree completely or don't feel like preaching to the choir, there's little point in making a comment. And perhaps people just want to be out geocaching, and don't want to rock the boat. I'm making the comments in an honest attempt to be constructive. If at any time you feel a line is being crossed, just say so. [LBK:] Where do you see those statistics? Under the sub-topic: 'Caching Etiquette' [Davemeister:] Off topic a little...the cache off Dowling in a "mosquito infested swamp" was mine. I admit to grousing a bit, because we didn't find your cache. but nearly got eaten alive in the process. It wasn't your fault.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 10, 2009 7:18:11 GMT -9
By packs, I was referring to northwes, though he has lightened up a bit. NorthWes and I just happen to agree on most things caching. We've been through a lot separately and together on land management and access issues over the years, dating back to when I was in Fairbanks. He and I also have a lot of accountability for safety in our respective work places and for other nonprofit organizations we work for, so we are particularly sensitized to many of the same things. Hence, the similarity in our responses to forum topics. Other than that, he's Baptist and I'm Catholic, so it may be a surprise that we actually ever agree on anything! Do you have suggestions on how the forums could be made more welcoming to others? Sort of like, "why should I bother voting" which leads to a minority of the country/state/muni selecting our leaders? On a very positive note, these forums are MUCH friendlier than the gc.com forums which frequently require moderator action and sometimes have threads locked when things get too ugly. I can recount only two occasions in the history of these forums where unsubstantiated personal attacks were made that crossed that line, but those situations were quickly rectified. So, post on!!!
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ak-dsp
Bronze Cacher
Posts: 27
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Post by ak-dsp on Jan 10, 2009 8:15:04 GMT -9
[LBK:] Do you have suggestions on how the forums could be made more welcoming to others? Geocaching as an activity, I think, is unique. It is an endeavor one just 'does' as I said earlier, like camping or fishing, but it differs in that it requires a second group of people to place the caches. In that there are so many ways to play/participate, and so many types of caches, and so many reasons to find them, it makes for a diverse population. I would find out who we are and why we do it, define the needs, and in a non-prickly way, honestly attempt to address those needs. [LBK:] Sort of like, "why should I bother voting" which leads to a minority of the country/state/muni selecting our leaders? Hmmm, sort of like Venezuela.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 10, 2009 9:20:05 GMT -9
[LBK:] Sort of like, "why should I bother voting" which leads to a minority of the country/state/muni selecting our leaders? Hmmm, sort of like Venezuela. Now there's an interesting comparison with a dictator. Dictators are pretty intolerant of dissenting viewpoints, yet these forums are and always have been open for all. (Or, did I misunderstand the meaning of your post?) Granted, several forum administrators (including me) participated in the discussions, but other than merging/moving other threads and dealing with other behind the scenes administrivia, none of the administrators have ever exercised administrative powers. If you feel there has been an abuse of administrative power, just say so and I'll happily give mine up, just as I declined any nominations for the charter board of directors because of allegations I was trying to organize GeocacheAlaska! for personal gain. I now return this thread to it's original topic: "Caches On/Near/Resembling Electrical Equipment"
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 10, 2009 11:45:42 GMT -9
...these forums are and always have been open for all. I'm calling <foul language deleted from this quote by LBK> on this. PM sent requesting more information. I remind participants in these forums of the "Forum Etiquette" thread. It states in part, "The discourse here is to be civil; i.e. polite! We will not allow or tolerate flaming or foul language."
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joetheplumber
Bronze Cacher
MIS
Posts: 15
GeocacheAlaska! Membership Level: Not a Member
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Post by joetheplumber on Jan 10, 2009 12:07:59 GMT -9
So what's the point of deleting my post if you go ahead and quote it in your post?
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 10, 2009 12:12:38 GMT -9
So what's the point of deleting my post if you go ahead and quote it in your post? Weird...wasn't me! And you and I are the only ones currently logged onto the forums.
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joetheplumber
Bronze Cacher
MIS
Posts: 15
GeocacheAlaska! Membership Level: Not a Member
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Post by joetheplumber on Jan 10, 2009 12:19:32 GMT -9
You know as well as I do that you can be logged in without being listed at the bottom of the page.
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joetheplumber
Bronze Cacher
MIS
Posts: 15
GeocacheAlaska! Membership Level: Not a Member
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Post by joetheplumber on Jan 10, 2009 12:23:14 GMT -9
And given the fact that my post was made at 3:33 forum time, you quoted it at 3:45 forum time, and Scobey last logged in at 3:50 Forum time, I'm betting on Scobey.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 10, 2009 12:25:54 GMT -9
You know as well as I do that you can be logged in without being listed at the bottom of the page. Administrators can see "invisible" log ins.
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joetheplumber
Bronze Cacher
MIS
Posts: 15
GeocacheAlaska! Membership Level: Not a Member
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Post by joetheplumber on Jan 10, 2009 12:31:21 GMT -9
At the time you said we were the only ones logged in, you were probably correct, but Scobey had logged in 17 minutes before, so I stand by my 4:23 post.
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Post by Forum Admin on Jan 10, 2009 12:39:48 GMT -9
At the time you said we were the only ones logged in, you were probably correct, but Scobey had logged in 17 minutes before, so I stand by my 4:23 post. So what is your point. Read your PM and you'll see what happened.
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joetheplumber
Bronze Cacher
MIS
Posts: 15
GeocacheAlaska! Membership Level: Not a Member
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Post by joetheplumber on Jan 10, 2009 12:54:50 GMT -9
I know what happened without reading anything.
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ak-dsp
Bronze Cacher
Posts: 27
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Post by ak-dsp on Jan 10, 2009 13:13:44 GMT -9
(off-topic) Sorry, I don't know how else to reply to your question in the same thread.
[LBK:] Now there's an interesting comparison with a dictator...
Venezuela is a country, Hugo Chavez is the president (he does not call himself a dictator). I was intentionally trying not to personalize the comment.
As I said earlier, there seems to be little desire to engage in a real discussion. Once some of these threads are started, and the initial post is made, the reader is presented with two check boxes:
[ ] 'I Agree', [ ] 'I Disagree, My, IQ is 10'.
Another example: You just asked for input about how to make the forums more participant-friendly. I responded, it was completely ignored.
Try and relate:
"I see where you're coming from on this ..." "That's a good idea, and/but ....." "Why don't we pursue this further on another thread ..." "That's a valid point, I can see how you might feel that way ..." "I disagree, but I understand your point of view ..."
You won't find much of that in these forums.
From the areas that I can comment on, this is a great website, and the administration of it (including the forums) is, in my opinion, exceptional.
Bear's Tooth, pizza, IPAs - who, when?
No more off-topic from me in this thread.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 10, 2009 13:15:55 GMT -9
Okay...let's move along...nothing more to see since it's been taken to PM after a moderator exercised the "foul language clause" from the "Forum Etiquette" thread.
I now return this thread to it's original topic: "Caches On/Near/Resembling Electrical Equipment."
As for me...I'm getting some air by taking my dogs skijoring.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 10, 2009 13:32:20 GMT -9
(off-topic) Sorry, I don't know how else to reply to your question in the same thread. LOL! Guess we could open a new thread: "How To Increase Participation in the Forums." Perhaps create a sock puppet account and post the log in credentials for people to use in case they are uncomfortable posting under their own moniker. I certainly hope that isn't the perception most people how read the forums have. I don't come away feeling like my IQ is 10 if I disagree with someone. I can't speak for others here, but I was digesting your response which was It didn't (for me) specifically answer the question of how to make the forums a more welcoming place so more people would feel comfortable participating. I was trying to wrap my brain around how to get the information you suggested we obtain (online survey, questionnaire passed out at events, etc.). The above said, I find the below feedback to be very constructive. You are correct that there is very little actual "active listening" in these and other forums. Posters tend to type right past each other, which is why I parse out my responses with so many quoted snippets. I can go introspective and see that I haven't used active listening phrases like you list below. There is a definite dearth of them in the vast majority of the discourse in here. I'm willing to give it a try if you are. Thank you, on behalf of all the moderators, for the kind words. Thank you, as well, for the ideas of how moderation and participation may be more friendly. We should check mutual calendars. Time for a nonagenda, just for fun event like the "Cup of Joe" event Li1gray attended today in St. Paul, MN. Now, really, off to run the dogs...
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Post by NorthWes on Jan 11, 2009 8:59:58 GMT -9
What angst some have exhibited in this thread... While I admit to occasionally speaking in a slightly directive turn of phrase (I am an 'older guy' with grey hair who's used to being made to be in charge of stuff - despite my innate desire for everyone to get along and like each other - so from time to time that 'in-charge' voice is heard - sorry...), it's my fond hope that NO ONE feels their IQ is being diminished, or that they're muzzled, or that there's a 'Wolf Pack' at their door, when they participate in the exchange of thought here. As you've seen in other threads I've participated in, I'm quite whimsical and downright foolish at times - not at all 'in charge' or 'dictatorial'. I'm just happy to see folks participate, as long as the forum's guidelines on civility are met (ugly attitudes and bad language are off the OK list - not necessary, and this is a game with 'family values' at its core). Go check out the recently opened thread titled Pets and Geocaching - synergistic opportunities?!? and you'll see my whimsical side. Edit by LBK to insert link.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 11, 2009 9:37:22 GMT -9
As you've seen in other threads I've participated in, I'm quite whimsical and downright foolish at times - not at all 'in charge' or 'dictatorial'. Who are you and what have you done with NorthWes???
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powmia
Silver Cacher
Caches Found/Hidden xxxx/x
Posts: 208
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Post by powmia on Jan 11, 2009 15:45:08 GMT -9
(I am an 'older guy' with grey hair who's used to being made to be in charge of stuff Relax. Soon you might be like me,an older guy with white hair who is no longer in charge.
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