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Post by li1gray on Apr 7, 2008 18:36:30 GMT -9
Well I was out on Ft Rich on Saturday April 4th trying to grab a couple of caches that are out in that area. Though the two I got are no that far off the road. I stopped by the Golf course and wanted to ask the "conservation agents and the MP" if the road was closesd or open up to Arctic Valley.
They recognized my truck that was parked along the road further back and asked if I was geocaching (yep they know about it). I told them yes and that I was heading over to Eagles Fence (benchmark 1st leg) and then hopefully to the cache. They asked if I had signed in at the main gate? My reply was no. Then he asked for my ID (I have one of those retired Air Force ones) He then started asking me questions about the caches I was after and the others I knew about that are on Ft Rich or that you have to go thru Ft Rich to do. I mentioned most of them by general location area because I don't rememebr all the names.
He then said that all the areas on Ft Rich are closed to off road use because of some sort of exercise and they are going to start cracking down on the cachers not signing in before going caching. I was happy I didn't get a ticket so he asked if I could inform those that cache in the area of the requirement to get a permit from the main gate to go "off road" and they mean just off the road not like a hike in the woods, just off the road like the new "star cache by the main gate"
The conversation Agent knew about a few of the caches already and has a nice E-trex and said he doesn't want to see the caches shut down just the cachers to check-in before going after the caches as some times the military does shoot live rounds in the management area where some of the caches are placed.
He asked me if I could inform all the cache owners of the requirement to sign in before going after the cache. I told him I know a few of them but that he could do the same and gave him the address of Geocacing.com and told him it was free.
I expect that I will be getting a call from someone from the MP's about the report and I will relay this to anyone that wants more information.
You can also PM at my Yahoo.com address of Li1gray
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Post by ladybugkids on Apr 7, 2008 21:34:05 GMT -9
He asked me if I could inform all the cache owners of the requirement to sign in before going after the cache. Sounds reasonable. Ft. Richardson has the same requirement for Clear Creek Butte cache south of Fairbanks and Ft. Wainwright the same for Donnelly Dome cache. I had a very positive interaction with Ft. Richardson's conservation officer about three years ago when I was trying to determine the route to Clear Creek Butte cache. He went as far as to give me a map and issue me a permit on the spot before sending me on my way. Here's my log.
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Post by oleruns on Apr 7, 2008 21:37:47 GMT -9
I'll call the MPs and ask them but two years ago all you had to do was get a RAP (recreational access pass) call in before you went on to post and call when you left. You were able to get it at the main gate. They would tell you what areas were closed like the Davis range kind of handy information if you are running the Tank Trails as that has live fire. If you see the red flag, it's in use and you shouldn't be in the area. ( been there done that ) That's how I found out about the pass
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Post by ladybugkids on Apr 7, 2008 22:03:01 GMT -9
I'll call the MPs and ask them but two years ago all you had to do was get a RAP (recreational access pass) call in before you went on to post and call when you left. You were able to get it at the main gate. They would tell you what areas were closed like the Davis range kind of handy information if you are running the Tank Trails as that has live fire. If you see the red flag, it's in use and you shouldn't be in the area. ( been there done that ) That's how I found out about the pass Unless things have changed since I was living in Fairbanks, Recreational Access Permits (USARAK) are good for two years from the date they are issued. Each permit is numbered and one can dial the phone number on the permit and go through the voice menus to enter your permit number and the area you plan to enter without having to go to the main gate each time you want to recreate on military lands. The recordings are updated when certain areas are closed.
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Post by TundraQuad on Apr 8, 2008 7:17:49 GMT -9
Know before you go. Visit this link if you want to know more about access to military controlled lands. I recommend any caches established on property that needs an access permit state so in the description. www.usarak.army.mil/conservation/REC_USARTRAK.htm (If I was better at HTML this would be a hot link. Just copy paste, works just as well.) It's free, good for two years, and keeps you out of the area when ranges are active. Even cache addicts don't want to be shot.
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Post by li1gray on Apr 8, 2008 7:32:22 GMT -9
Know before you go. Visit this link if you want to know more about access to military controlled lands. I recommend any caches established on property that needs an access permit state so in the description. www.usarak.army.mil/conservation/REC_USARTRAK.htm (If I was better at HTML this would be a hot link. Just copy paste, works just as well.) It's free, good for two years, and keeps you out of the area when ranges are active. Even cache addicts don't want to be shot. TundraQuad, Think you hit the nail on the head and thanks for the link. I am sure it is on my handful of maps he gave me.
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Post by Malcore on Apr 8, 2008 17:16:11 GMT -9
Hmm, Interesting. Im glad this came up because I had no clue there were any issues with were the caches are up in artic vally. Looks like I better get one of the permits. One question though, Is there a map some where that shows the different areas they are talking about? I see they say there are 29 areas in the Fort Rich area but I couldn't find any links to maps.
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Post by li1gray on Apr 8, 2008 17:55:53 GMT -9
Hmm, Interesting. Im glad this came up because I had no clue there were any issues with were the caches are up in artic vally. Looks like I better get one of the permits. One question though, Is there a map some where that shows the different areas they are talking about? I see they say there are 29 areas in the Fort Rich area but I couldn't find any links to maps. Malcore, Yes the map has the boundaries on it and it is pretty easy to use. They usually border along the road system making it easy to know that you are not allowed say on the "north side of the road or east." With Geocachers we should have a pretty good idea how to read a map or else maybe we should go do the new disorienteed cache! Oh forgot the real question, YES, they will give you a MAP!
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Post by oleruns on Apr 9, 2008 13:12:38 GMT -9
The info below is correct I just talked to the MPs. Here is a side note THE BASE IS CLOSED TO RECREATION ACTIVITES He said check back in two weeks but you can get the pass now if you like. I'll call the MPs and ask them but two years ago all you had to do was get a RAP (recreational access pass) call in before you went on to post and call when you left. You were able to get it at the main gate. They would tell you what areas were closed like the Davis range kind of handy information if you are running the Tank Trails as that has live fire. If you see the red flag, it's in use and you shouldn't be in the area. ( been there done that ) That's how I found out about the pass Unless things have changed since I was living in Fairbanks, Recreational Access Permits (USARAK) are good for two years from the date they are issued. Each permit is numbered and one can dial the phone number on the permit and go through the voice menus to enter your permit number and the area you plan to enter without having to go to the main gate each time you want to recreate on military lands. The recordings are updated when certain areas are closed.
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Post by akbearb8 on Apr 11, 2009 12:42:48 GMT -9
It is true that everyone (civilian or military) must have a recreation access pass to recreate on Fort Richardson Land. You must sign in and out of the area each time you recreate. The usartrak website listed in a previous message is correct.
Unfortunately this does not include geocaching. Geocaching on federal/military property is prohibited and Fort Richardson Ak does not have a special permit for allowing geocaching. Geocaching.com and Geocachealaska.org prohibit placing a geocache on or near military property according to the "PHYSICAL CACHE" requirements. The caches on military property should have been removed by the owners and archived by the website administrators.
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Post by FrostG1anT on Apr 11, 2009 13:48:26 GMT -9
Geocaching.com and Geocachealaska.org prohibit placing a geocache on or near military property Just to set the record straight, GeocacheAlaska! Inc. does not set any rules for the sport/game of geocaching. Yes you do need a recreational permit to use the Alpineglow area and should check in at the gate when going to the chalet or anywhere past the gate. The Alpineglow/Arctic Valley area is a military owned public use area, but does require a special use permit to recreate on. This topic has come up before and the answer that was given in the past may not be the answer given now, but the use of the area was permissible for geocaching in the past. I do know the area is closed to all use at times when military maneuvers are being performed.
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kmags
Copper Cacher
Posts: 7
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Post by kmags on Apr 12, 2009 9:49:00 GMT -9
I received this message from akbearb8: Hello, I am a civilian conservation officer on Fort Richardson and this past year we have had many contacts with geocachers on Fort Richardson. Most of the folks were cooperative and honest with us. Some of them tried to hide that they were geocaching or outright lied. 99% of them did not have a recreation access pass and were not signed-in to the Training Area that they were in. The fact is that geocaching is and has always been prohibited on Military/Federal property. It is clearly stated in the Federal/Army regulation and in the geocache.com requirements for "physical cache". For whatever reason dozens of illegal geocaches are on Fort Richardson and more are being planted or planned every week it seems. With the troops training more and the training area being more active and dangerous now than ever we can't tolerate these activities. I am asking everyone with geocaches on Fort Richardson to archive/remove them immediately from the website and physically/permanently remove them by 01 May 09. This should give you time to coordinate everything on the caches webpage to prevent confusion and continued visits to the sites. I will be monitoring the caches and the webpages progress and will remove the cache myself if I receive no response from owner, cache is not removed in timely manner or I see increase of geocachers to sites.
I have disabled "Big Gnarly" I have a valid Recreational Access Pass and thought this allowed hiking, skiing and recreational activities on base.
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Post by FrostG1anT on Apr 12, 2009 11:35:46 GMT -9
It looks as if this request is valid and should be complied with and quickly. If you are the owner of a cache that falls within the boundaries of Fort Richardson please remove it and archive the cache. If you know someone who is a cache owner of a cache within the boundaries please pass this information along to them. If we all act together and act quickly we can resolve this issue without any incident.
There are lots of areas to cache and this is an area that has been a gray area for some time now.
Thank you and Happy Easter.
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stoweak
Bronze Cacher
Mr. & Mrs.
Posts: 90
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Post by stoweak on Apr 13, 2009 12:00:02 GMT -9
I am so sorry to hear all this. I went after Big Gnarly with Omonra last month and it was great fun. We went to the gate, signed in, got our ID/rec use permit and it was an uncomplicated process and everyone was friendly. They showed us where to check in and log in what areas we would be in. They gave us each maps that indicated the numbered areas. They also gave us a telephone number that we could call in to check if areas were open and also to call in to check out of an area without having to come back to the gate. It was an easy, casual, friendly experience. If not for Li1gray's post at the start of Big Gnarly's cache page, I wouldn't have even known that a permit was needed. I thought the area along the road up to Arctic Valley ski area was open and never thought about it being military. Again, I am sorry to hear of trouble that may have caused by having caches and geocachers in the area. And I'm sorry to lose this as an area to bring people out to explore safely with permission.
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Post by tinman4x on Apr 13, 2009 13:10:35 GMT -9
You and Omonra are the exception not the Rule Stoweak. If every cacher made the effort to play by Ft. Richardson's rules we wouldn't be having this problem now.
I have been in contact with Officer Wendland @ Ft. Richardson today and will be recieving a map detailing their area of concern. He was very helpful and concerned that the cache owners have the opportunity to get their containers ect back. I explained that most of the Anchorage based cachers are aware of the special check in requirements on Ft. Richardson but due to the global nature of this game not every cacher on the planet is aware. Officer Wendlin went on to say he had made contact with international cachers who were trespassing and unable to speak english.
Once I have the official area map from Officer Wendland we can work to help meet their goal of having the caches in question archived and or removed by their May 1st deadline.
During our conversation the position and roll of GeocacheAlaska was discussed. Officer Wendlin now understands better the magnitude of the game and that GeocacheAlaska is by no means a "caching police" group but a group of cachers established to work WITH area land managers to protect and preserve the game we love to play.
Officer Wendland appologized for Akbearb8's lack of details and contact information in his original posting. Both Officer Wendland & Officer Deese can be reached at 907-384-1128
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Post by oleruns on Apr 13, 2009 18:45:17 GMT -9
I have archived my caches to comply with their wishes.
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Post by davemeister on Apr 14, 2009 18:35:10 GMT -9
Though I don't have any caches on Frt Rich, I usually obtain a RAC to go on these lands. In my opinion, I think the reason Geocache rules say that Military Installations are off limits are two fold at least: 1.Security issues and to a very minor degree 2. The land is not accessable for everyone to find.
I think the loophole of having a RAC gave unintended permission to "recreate" on military lands and this in my opinion means geocaching.
I know that the Frt Rich outdoor recreation center has/had a geocache account. Not sure if they have any caches hidden on military lands though.
Shame this area is closed for geocaching.
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FLYRFN
Silver Cacher
Posts: 180
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Post by FLYRFN on Apr 14, 2009 21:32:24 GMT -9
2. The land is not accessable for everyone to find. The bike trail along the highway IS accessible to everyone, but those caches have to go also, GC.com needs to clarify their rules on how far away from a military base a cache can be, like 50 FT away from a fence. Ft Rich is using a loop hole in the rules that states "Caches near or on military installations." are not permitted.
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Post by ladybugkids on Apr 15, 2009 6:59:47 GMT -9
Tinman4x's post said he'll be getting a map of the areas of concern. We may find out the bikepath is a gerrymandered cache "inclusion" zone. I'm also holding out hope that Arctic Valley is an inclusion zone as well since it has its own pay parking area.
I hope the map is provided in electronic format (or we can scan it) so it can be posted on the GeocacheAlaska! website and linked in here.
All the above said...it is military land and the land managers can specify land use policy and give geocaching the wholesale boot.
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Post by ladybugkids on Apr 15, 2009 21:14:36 GMT -9
Checking maps against the list of caches of concern provided by the Army, a maximum of 24 caches are affected, with the final number being something less than that. For example, "Steel Fence" and "Flyrfn's 1st Cache" may be allowed to continue on.
Tinman4x has been doing a great job of communicating directly with Army officials and StoweAK did a nice job of anotating the list of caches they provided.
The three caches (Arctic Valley Pass, Mount Gordon Lyon, Oh My Darlin' Clementine) in upper Arctic Valley are not on military land and will not be affected.
Stay tuned!!!
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FLYRFN
Silver Cacher
Posts: 180
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Post by FLYRFN on Apr 15, 2009 21:48:01 GMT -9
Eglin Air Force Base in Flordia makes money off geocachers, here's the disclaimer for caches on their property, they don't have a live fire range like Ft Rich does so it's not as dangerous in FL. This statement is on ALL caches that are on Eglin property.
This cache is located on Eglin Air Force Base Reservation. An Eglin Recreation Permit is required ($10) An annual (Oct 1 to Sept 30) recreation permit cost $10 and can be purchased at the Eglin Natural Resources Branch, 107 Hwy 85 North, Niceville FL, 32578. (850) 882-4164. Permits may be purchased through the mail with a check or money order and a copy of a photo ID.
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Post by ladybugkids on Apr 16, 2009 6:08:20 GMT -9
As an FYI...unlike the Google Maps, the MapQuest, Yahoo Maps, and Rand McNally maps accessed from each cache page clearly show the military boundaries in case there are any questions about whether a cache is on post or not.
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Post by alaskarambo on Apr 18, 2009 12:11:11 GMT -9
I think that the base needs to post its areas and territories "better" then what they do. You walk off of Hiland road and do not expect to be on "military land" and with no signs or markers ... what did they expect? And don't start the "get a map" not everyone knows how to read one or if they do read it "WELL". There is nothing wrong with Better and More perimeter markers in areas that are not fenced.
Don't get me wrong, I work for Homeland I can assure you I understand security and the implications and ramifications when it is lax....however, BOTH groups here need to play fair. And personally, in my "HUMBLE" opinion this is blown way out of proportion...but again, my opinion, I have never been known to be one to keep my trap shut so get used to it.
If someone out there doesn't agree with me, go hike back off of hiland road and the powerline. TELL me what kind of markers/signs you see? Perhaps they have been buried in snow (lol - one joke I can lighten up)
Again, my complaint is the lack of clear Boundary marking. Its not Geocachers that are being "dishonest" and "hiding" what they are doing....its a military base that uses the fact a that a lot of it is covered by dense scrub and 5 star plus terrain. They have been making the ASSUMPTION that no one is nutty enough to traverse back there....but they just don't "know" us now do they??
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Post by Forum Admin on Apr 18, 2009 12:50:10 GMT -9
I think that the base needs to post its areas and territories "better" then what they do. You walk off of Hiland road and do not expect to be on "military land" and with no signs or markers ... what did they expect? And don't start the "get a map" not everyone knows how to read one or if they do read it "WELL". There is nothing wrong with Better and More perimeter markers in areas that are not fenced. Don't get me wrong, I work for Homeland I can assure you I understand security and the implications and ramifications when it is lax....however, BOTH groups here need to play fair. And personally, in my "HUMBLE" opinion this is blown way out of proportion...but again, my opinion, I have never been known to be one to keep my trap shut so get used to it. If someone out there doesn't agree with me, go hike back off of hiland road and the powerline. TELL me what kind of markers/signs you see? Perhaps they have been buried in snow (lol - one joke I can lighten up) Again, my complaint is the lack of clear Boundary marking. Its not Geocachers that are being "dishonest" and "hiding" what they are doing....its a military base that uses the fact a that a lot of it is covered by dense scrub and 5 star plus terrain. They have been making the ASSUMPTION that no one is nutty enough to traverse back there....but they just don't "know" us now do they?? It isn't up to the military to mark their land every 2 feet. We who live here, and especially cachers, need to take the time to familiarize ourselves with the area we plan to place a cache in to make sure it isn't military land or someone's private property. Using your logic I should mark my house and land as private property or find one of your caches under my deck.
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Post by mainframe185 on Apr 18, 2009 15:41:59 GMT -9
I'm sorry but this issue is really sticking in my craw. 1st off, I am retired active duty military and my oldest son is now serving in the US Marines. My father was in the Army in WWII and survived the attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th 1941. That's three generations in a row that have served in my family. I have the greatest respect for our military folks and sleep really good at night knowing they're out there, putting their lives on the line, protecting the freedoms we all enjoy as Americans. That being said, I see no reason for these caches to have to come down, especially the ones off Highland (Itditarod TBH, Feelin' Blue, Anybody Home, Short on Cache, etc.) To the best of my knowledge, they aren't even on Government property, but on Muni lands: munimaps.muni.org/mox52/advanced.cfm?&action=mox52_if_framesetMy experience has been that Geocachers in the majority are very conservation-minded folks who love the outdoors and treat it with the greatest respect. I wonder if Officer Wendland has ever heard of Cache In Trash Out (CITO)? My son, GeoScout9326, carried a large trash bag with him the entire time we were out Thursday night and we nearly filled it with trash we hauled out from the caches mentioned above. I've seen other cachers practicing the same maintenance. If you are going to label a group as troublemakers, I think you'd better have the big picture on all of their activities, not just signing logs and swapping geoswag. Am I all alone in this opinion, or are there other cachers out there that feel the same way? Yours in caching, - Main
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Post by ladybugkids on Apr 18, 2009 16:02:09 GMT -9
And don't start the "get a map" not everyone knows how to read one or if they do read it "WELL". As posted a couple of posts up, the MapQuest, Yahoo Maps, and Rand McNally links on each cache page very clearly indicate where the boundaries are. One can load coordinates onto a cache page leaving the "Yes, this listing is active" unchecked, view the new cache page, and click one of the map links to see where the cache falls. A cacher should do this anytime they place a cache so they are certain they are placing the cache in the right jurisdiction for which we have permission to play the game. Bottom line on caches on military property: Groundspeak's guidelines are very clear, stating: "Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not exhaustive):...Caches near or on military installations." Also, "By submitting a cache listing, you assure us (Groundspeak) that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location." Presumably, one would know whose land they are placing a cache on so they know if they have adequate permission before they check the box on the cache submittal form that says, "Yes. I have read and understand the guidelines for listing a cache." Local cachers got a free ride on this one for many years until things came to a head with local officials. Perhaps things wouldn't have come to a head like this if more cachers played it straight with the officers who approached them and complied with the military's recreational permit requirement. We, as a group, also need to be mindful how we present ourselves in these forums, cache pages, and other public places regarding this issue. We need to be consistent in our cooperative responses to requests of local land managers or we can see the whole house of cards come down and get booted from other lands as well. It's happend in other states. It can happen here. Perhaps those having an "in" with the military could work with tinman4x and the civilian consevation officers to establish a permitting process for Ft. Richardson lands. Flyrfn posted an example of a Florida installation that allows caching and I have heard of other locations outside of Alaska were arrangements between geocachers and military land managers have been made. There are lots of square miles of land marked "recreation" on the map that tinman4x was provided with, so there may be the opportunity to play on those lands. Anyone interested should drop tinman4x a note or a PM.
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Post by Forum Admin on Apr 18, 2009 16:04:00 GMT -9
I'm sorry but this issue is really sticking in my craw. 1st off, I am retired active duty military and my oldest son is now serving in the US Marines. My father was in the Army in WWII and survived the attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th 1941. That's three generations in a row that have served in my family. I have the greatest respect for our military folks and sleep really good at night knowing they're out there, putting their lives on the line, protecting the freedoms we all enjoy as Americans. That being said, I see no reason for these caches to have to come down, especially the ones off Highland (Itditarod TBH, Feelin' Blue, Anybody Home, Short on Cache, etc.) To the best of my knowledge, they aren't even on Government property, but on Muni lands: munimaps.muni.org/mox52/advanced.cfm?&action=mox52_if_framesetMy experience has been that Geocachers in the majority are very conservation-minded folks who love the outdoors and treat it with the greatest respect. I wonder if Officer Wendland has ever heard of Cache In Trash Out (CITO)? My son, GeoScout9326, carried a large trash bag with him the entire time we were out Thursday night and we nearly filled it with trash we hauled out from the caches mentioned above. I've seen other cachers practicing the same maintenance. If you are going to label a group as troublemakers, I think you'd better have the big picture on all of their activities, not just signing logs and swapping geoswag. Am I all alone in this opinion, or are there other cachers out there that feel the same way? Yours in caching, - Main I agree and think we need to educate the militray land managers and then get a permit for certain areas like we did with State Parks.
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Post by ladybugkids on Apr 18, 2009 20:03:00 GMT -9
I updated the GeocacheAlaska! Land Managers webpage to reflect the latest developments. A very detailed map of Ft. Richardson/Eielson AFB lands may be downloaded by clicking here. Dial-up users beware...it's a 7MB pdf file.
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FLYRFN
Silver Cacher
Posts: 180
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Post by FLYRFN on Apr 18, 2009 20:17:15 GMT -9
I think there's more to this than a few people looking for caches on Gov property. Instead of starting a land battle with Ft Rich, which we will lose, let's let Tinman4x work with them and come up with an aggrement that will work for both party's!
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Post by ladybugkids on Apr 18, 2009 20:42:17 GMT -9
I think there's more to this than a few people looking for caches on Gov property. Instead of starting a land battle with Ft Rich, which we will lose, let's let Tinman4x work with them and come up with an aggrement that will work for both party's! I think you're right on more than one point, Flyrfn. The military owns/manages the land. It's their place to designate how the land is used. About a decade ago, the military banned runners, walkers, mountain bikers, etc. from the "tank trails" that can be accessed from Arctic Valley Road, Basher (Campbell Airstrip Road), and points east of Muldoon Rd. Heeding public hue and cry, access was restored using the recreation permit process.
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