AP-PP......Always Post a Positive Post.

[fuzzybelly]

As a geocaheAlaska member I'd like to challenge every member, Sourdough or chechako, as well as non-members, to... APaPP, "Always Post a Positive Post", no matter the smiley or DNF.

Surely there was something good to say about the, location adventure or time you had alone, or with a friend. A DNF shouldn't mean a nor should we make the cache owner feel anything less for their efforts.

[burtonsinak]

I was in this park a while back and had a dnf... we fig. it was missing but it was a nice walk from the long way to GZ. we were happy to see a new park and another hunt we would have there. I headed back to the park but found out no CM had been done yet, but that was ok as this time i parked on the close side and seen new trees down. So im still smiling even tho I didn't get the smilie as i know one day i will have 2 swmilies.. one for the find and one on my face when i find it...
Is this what you mean Fuzzy??

[fuzzybelly]

Yep, that's what I mean

Fuzzybelly say:

you don't always find what your looking for, but inevitable you find something you never knew you where hunting for to begin with; A pleasant relaxing quiet walk, a frisky young moose grazing on branches, or a beautiful sunset like there was yesterday

Fuzzybelly say;

a DNF doesn't always mean it's missing, it may only mean it was missed

[burtonsinak]

I even found a pile of moose turds at GZ

nothing really new but new for that day and new at GZ...lol

i wonder if i was thinking of the CO at that time... hummmm

[SSO JOAT]

a DNF doesn't always mean it's missing, it may only mean it was missed

A lot of wisdom in that statement fuzzy-fucious

[ladybugkids]

Jan 15, 2013 8:06:51 GMT -9 fuzzybelly said:

a DNF doesn't always mean it's missing, it may only mean it was missed

Really??? I wonder why so many cachers write a "Needs Maintenance" log rather than a "DNF" log when they can't find a cache. Will have to ponder this a bit.

[NorthWes]

Jan 15, 2013 16:03:06 GMT -9 SSO JOAT said:

a DNF doesn't always mean it's missing, it may only mean it was missed

A lot of wisdom in that statement fuzzy-fucious

You know, if I've got a negative attitude going into a geocache hunt, it's not a good way to enjoy the game. I like your suggestion, fuzzy - put on a relentlessly positive mental attitude and remember we play the game to have a good time. Smilies are a bonus.

[NeverSummer]

It really is all about perspective.

There are some very interesting philisophical conversations that go on about DNF, NM and NA logs over at the Groundspeak forums. Many get pretty heated, but the bottom line always seems to come out:
DNF, NM and NA logs are tools we have been provided by Groundspeak to report our cache experiences.

The "Found It" log is the most positive, yet can sometimes include defamatory remarks or simplistic dismissals like a solitary "TFTC" or "." log. But, overall, the "Found It" is a celebration and contains kind remarks.

I think the problems start when the DNF, NM and NA logs are thought of by a cache owner as a disparagement against their caches or cache placement abilities. That is when people can get defensive. Add that defensiveness to a DNF, NM or NA log that is written by a frustrated, angry, or generally grumpy person, and you compound the issue.

We should all be aware, as fuzzy says in his OP, that we should be constructive in our logging of caches. I will add that we should also be ready as cache owners to thicken our skin when we see a DNF, NM or NA log on our caches.

We all have a responsibility to enforce the daily common practices and "cache policing" of the game. That goes for our Found It logs, as well as our DNF, NM and NA logs. So long as we are constuctive, and approach the seemingly "negative" log types of DNF, NM and NA constructively as well, I think we can see a continued improvement on our game, how we play, and how we all feel about each other.

I'll add that a Positive Mental Attitude (PMA) can account for all the difference in a survival situation, and certainly trickles down into the most simple aspects of our lives. If we have a PMA when we set out to cache, we're all more likely to be positive, constructive, and prepared to let seemingly difficult situations roll off of our backs.

[SSO JOAT]

I'd like to positively point out that joat was not the OP. I'm positively sure that fuzzybelly was the OP.

I don't see any of the log types as "negative". They are simply categories of logs.

It requires the addition of positive, neutral, or negative content by the cacher to make a log positive or negative. I see the "TFTC" log to be neutral. It is neither positive nor negative.

Just because I found a cache does NOT mean I'm happy about it. A stinking, wet log in a non-water resistant container placed under a lamp skirt in an ordinary shopping center is an example. Found it. Going to write a word or two on the log just to be nice. Not really "positive" about that particular cache. Some would argue that "TFTC" is too much to write. To each their own, but if you can't be positive, then at least be neutral.

And I've also had some really great DNF logs. I've written DNF logs that were several paragraphs long, rambling on about my adventure and search. Even though it didn't result in a find.

A NM is a helpful note from a concerned cacher to let the CO and other cachers know that the container is broken. The fact that there is a physical problem with the container or log might be the result of something negative, but the NM log to report the problem shouldn't be negative. Of course, it can be used negatively (and incorrectly) such as when a cacher uses the NM log type instead of the DNF log type when they did't find the container (or a portion of it). Unless you find the cache, you can't know it needs maintenance. So, if you didn't find it, then happily log your DNF.

Correct Example:

Found It! Had a great hike up to the cache. Weather was perfect. Saw lots of flora and fauna along the way. But uh-oh! It looks like a bear got into the cache. The lid is cracked and there are teeth marks in it. We dumped the water out and put the swag in a ziploc bag. We dried the log in the sun while we had a trail break. It's still a bit damp with a rusty spiral wire and pages stuck together. We put it in a separate ziploc bag and added some dry log sheets for the next cacher. A little tape over the big holes in the lid should keep most of the rain out until the CO can get it fixed up proper. TFTH!!!

(and then log the NM separately...)

Needs Maintenance- The conatiner has a cracked lid which allowed it to fill with water and wet the logbook. Looks like you'll need to replace the whole container and log. We saw a lot of bear sign in the area and there are teeth marks on the cache. You may want to consider a more durable container when you replace this one!

And here is an incorrect example:

TFTC

(and then separately...)

Needs Maintenance- Container is trashed. Found it broken and full of water. Couldn't even sign the drenched logbook. Wish people would take care of their caches around here. Getting tired of these junk containers. I'll be watching this cache and posting NA if I don't see it get taken care of.

Same cache. Two different ways to handle the situation.

[NeverSummer]

Dec 9, 2013 11:06:36 GMT -9 SSO JOAT said:

I'd like to positively point out that joat was not the OP. I'm positively sure that fuzzybelly was the OP.

Oopsy! I was looking at the wrong post when I posted what I posted when I posted it.

I don't see any of the log types as "negative". They are simply categories of logs.

Yeah, I agree. I was explaining it in the context of the summary of Groundspeak forum topics of this ilk. For some reason or another, many people have taken offense at DNF, NM or NA logs, and it seems to have created some strange negative connotation to even seeing those log types used.

It requires the addition of positive, neutral, or negative content by the cacher to make a log positive or negative. I see the "TFTC" log to be neutral. It is neither positive nor negative.

I'm with you. A simple "TFTC", and nothing else, is pretty neutral. But, when reading through the topics outside of our own forums, "TFTC" has become synonymous with apathetic disregard. I'm not saying it's right, or that I agree wholeheartedly, but that's just the context I was providing.

For example, if the primary redeeming quality of the cache is that it gave one another find, then a TFTC would get used. It's almost like saying, "Have a Disney Day!"...

Just because I found a cache does NOT mean I'm happy about it. A stinking, wet log in a non-water resistant container placed under a lamp skirt in an ordinary shopping center is an example. Found it. Going to write a word or two on the log just to be nice. Not really "positive" about that particular cache. Some would argue that "TFTC" is too much to write. To each their own, but if you can't be positive, then at least be neutral.

I agree. And I think this is where the OP is on target. I also think that, now that more people know why some use the "TFTC" solo log, people start to view "TFTC" and nothing else in a log as a "negative" log. Outside it has ruffled some feathers.

And I've also had some really great DNF logs. I've written DNF logs that were several paragraphs long, rambling on about my adventure and search. Even though it didn't result in a find.

I totally agree! I've read (and posted) some pretty great DNF logs. Sometimes the DNF log is better than the Found It the same cache could have received.

A NM is a helpful note from a concerned cacher to let the CO and other cachers know that the container is broken. The fact that there is a physical problem with the container or log might be the result of something negative, but the NM log to report the problem shouldn't be negative. Of course, it can be used negatively (and incorrectly) such as when a cacher uses the NM log type instead of the DNF log type when they did't find the container (or a portion of it). Unless you find the cache, you can't know it needs maintenance. So, if you didn't find it, then happily log your DNF.

Correct Example:

Found It! Had a great hike up to the cache. Weather was perfect. Saw lots of flora and fauna along the way. But uh-oh! It looks like a bear got into the cache. The lid is cracked and there are teeth marks in it. We dumped the water out and put the swag in a ziploc bag. We dried the log in the sun while we had a trail break. It's still a bit damp with a rusty spiral wire and pages stuck together. We put it in a separate ziploc bag and added some dry log sheets for the next cacher. A little tape over the big holes in the lid should keep most of the rain out until the CO can get it fixed up proper. TFTH!!!

(and then log the NM separately...)

Needs Maintenance- The conatiner has a cracked lid which allowed it to fill with water and wet the logbook. Looks like you'll need to replace the whole container and log. We saw a lot of bear sign in the area and there are teeth marks on the cache. You may want to consider a more durable container when you replace this one!

And here is an incorrect example:

TFTC

(and then separately...)

Needs Maintenance- Container is trashed. Found it broken and full of water. Couldn't even sign the drenched logbook. Wish people would take care of their caches around here. Getting tired of these junk containers. I'll be watching this cache and posting NA if I don't see it get taken care of.

Same cache. Two different ways to handle the situation.

Yup.  Sometimes being objective is difficult.  When frustration about one's tiring on how many junk containers they've found takes over their logs, it makes it hard to be the owner of that cache they're posting about.  That's where "rolling off your back" comes in.  If my cache gets even a "nasty" DNF or NM/NA log, I head out, perform maintenance, enable the cache, and let folks know it's ready to go again.  It can be hard to not let it become personal when someone posts something like your last example. But the best medicine for a sourpuss is to just fix the problem with the cache and move on.

[ladybugkids]

So, are you guys saying one shouldn't use DPM in a cache log?

I do think "TFTC" is more negative than neutral. It tells me nothing about the cacher's experience in seeking and finding the cache. Depending on the cache, the Cache Owner went to some effort to place and post the cache, so I feel that the least I can do is right something about my experience. But, some may think I get wordy, with an average cache log length of 95 words with each and every log being unique.

It's my opinion that the rise of the smart phone and the power trail has led to the demise of great logs which are becoming ever rarer as cachers opt to find dozens of cookie cutter caches a day and log them in the field with a copy and paste log rather than take a hike with a single cache target and then spend the evening uploading photos and reminiscing about the experience with a log long enough to require a note following the "found it" log.

[NeverSummer]

Dec 9, 2013 11:43:09 GMT -9 ladybugkids said:

So, are you guys saying one shouldn't use DPM in a cache log?

I do think "TFTC" is more negative than neutral. It tells me nothing about the cacher's experience in seeking and finding the cache. Depending on the cache, the Cache Owner went to some effort to place and post the cache, so I feel that the least I can do is right something about my experience. But, some may think I get wordy, with an average cache log length of 95 words with each and every log being unique.

It's my opinion that the rise of the smart phone and the power trail has led to the demise of great logs which are becoming ever rarer as cachers opt to find dozens of cookie cutter caches a day and log them in the field with a copy and paste log rather than take a hike with a single cache target and then spend the evening uploading photos and reminiscing about the experience with a log long enough to require a note following the "found it" log.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d8FTPv955I



I really do think that "TFTC" has become the new "DPM" or "NRV" (No Redeeming Value) log in some ways. Whereas it used to be a shorthand at the end of an otherwise loquacious log, "TFTC" has become the standalone on some logs. Eventually it became a slap in the face to owners who had taken time to create a nice cache, take a cacher to great location, etc. Once it was noted for that range of upset, users began using as a way to say "DPM" about a cache. Once again, its use has become more well known toward that purpose, yet cachers keep using it as a solo log.

Now, I don't think that TFTC has to be negative, but we are looking at a "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" log. One could, at least, talk about the day, the location, or the like, even if the cache has no redeeming value other than the fact that it increases a find count.

That all said, those were the days...I recently found the feature on project-gc.com that shows the average log length. I've been aiming to get back to the days of yore, when I would write more about the cache and the cache outing--all while not cutting and pasting.

Being positive is one thing, but being diplomatic and constructive is the bottom line for DNF/NM/NA logs to me. We all can and should "police" the game, but we can choose to be good cop or bad cop.

[ladybugkids]

At least folks could mix things up a bit. Variations I came across last month include:

MPLC = Merci pour le cache (French)
DZK = Diky za kes :-) (Czech)
VDFDC = Vielen Dank fuer den Cache (German)
HZZ = Hvala za zaklad (Slovenian)

Etc.

[SSO JOAT]

And one could flip this around a bit, too.

If writing "TFTC" exceeds the amount of effort the CO put into obtaining a durable, waterproof container, averaging perfect coordinates, writing a unique and interesting cache page, and selecting appropriate D/T ratings and attributes, then maybe that's all they deserve.

While I like to write good logs (go look at some of my logs on KK puzzles that ramble on for a full page), I'm generally not going to write a log that exceeds the amount of effort the CO put into developing their cache listing. And we've all seen cache pages where the "TFTC" log has more info than what the CO put in the description.

But, let's be objective here. "DPM" is a direct insult. It's like calling someone a bad name. Whereas "TFTC" actually stands for "Thanks For The Cache". And that's a positive statement, no matter how you look at it.

As for unique logs... When looking at a cache series where the CO used copy/paste to create a bunch of hides and there is nothing unique from listing to listing, I don't see where the finder need put any more effort into writting logs than doing a copy/paste. However, the reverse of that is certainly on my pet peeve list. I hate receiving a string of found it logs on a whole bunch of my caches (all ususally arriving within seconds of each other in the mail box) where the cacher does a complete copy/paste logging of every cache they found on their vacation last month without a single unique thing to say about any particular cache.

Thus, the "negative" can go both ways. While some might think "TFTC" is a negative toward the CO, I think the reverse is more often true. A string of copy/paste short logs or "TFTC" logs is telling me that this is a cacher that may be of "lower quality" (to steal the definition of "DPM"). So, having seen a LOT of "TFTC" logs on a lot of good caches, I'm personally more inclined to assign any negativity about that kind of log on the cacher who wrote it, and not so much on the cache that it was written to.

[NeverSummer]

I think that's part of the problem. Both sides might see it as a "negative log" when a "TFTC" is the only thing typed.

I think we can all agree what a "good" cache is. I think we can all agree what a "bad" cache might be as well.

If a "TFTC"-only log is posted on a good cache, some owners take offense because they might feel it deserves more than that. The "TFTC" logger might then be noted as a "lower quality" cacher.

If a "TFTC"-only is posted on a bad cache, it very well could be a signal that this cache was good for nothing beyond the smilie, but the logger wasn't about to post anything mean-spirited or "direct" about the cache.

So, suddenly we have a four letter word that neither side really wants to use, based on its interpretations. So, it might be helpful to stay away from it altogether. (I'm not saying anyone should, just stating a possibility)

Here's a valid set of recent events: A cacher came to town and found many of the caches here. They posted simple "TFTC" on all but one. On that one "Found It" log, they mentioned that they felt badly about posting the "TFTC" logs on the others, but were in a hurry and were showing a new cacher how to play the game and log caches.

What a bummer. They showed someone how to find caches, but not how to write a meaningful log. That irked me, but I had to let it go. My caches were among those found and logged "TFTC", and until I saw the explaination log on the one, I was a little ruffled up.

[ladybugkids]

Dec 9, 2013 15:43:12 GMT -9 SSO JOAT said:

So, having seen a LOT of "TFTC" logs on a lot of good caches, I'm personally more inclined to assign any negativity about that kind of log on the cacher who wrote it, and not so much on the cache that it was written to.

+1.

And for the record, I have never actually logged a cache with "DPM," though I have been sorely tempted on several occasions. I agree with all that is said here about sticking to the facts of the hunt without overembellishinng the negative aspects.

[ladybugkids]

Dec 9, 2013 16:09:25 GMT -9 NeverSummer said:

So, suddenly we have a four letter word that neither side really wants to use, based on its interpretations. So, it might be helpful to stay away from it altogether. (I'm not saying anyone should, just stating a possibility)

I don't think I've ever used "TFTC," but working in an organization that has an acronym dictionary that stetches dozens of single-spaced pages, I don't use acronyms as a general rule. I won't even abbreviate "GeocacheAlaska!"

[SSO JOAT]

Not to pick nits, but...

Sept 20, 2013 7:21:22 GMT -9 ladybugkids said:

So, are we GeAKs, or twits, or perhaps both?

You did. Once.

[fuzzybelly]

Dec 9, 2013 15:43:12 GMT -9 SSO JOAT said:

As for unique logs... When looking at a cache series where the CO used copy/paste to create a bunch of hides and there is nothing unique from listing to listing, I don't see where the finder need put any more effort into writting logs than doing a copy/paste. However, the reverse of that is certainly on my pet peeve list. I hate receiving a string of found it logs on a whole bunch of my caches (all ususally arriving within seconds of each other in the mail box) where the cacher does a complete copy/paste logging of every cache they found on their vacation last month without a single unique thing to say about any particular cache.

This is the one that drives me crazy. It's just strictly a numbers game for these cachers, and I woulda rathered them not risk my hide location to muggles for their smiley.

I would never copy/past a post to another cache.

[fuzzybelly]

What the heck is DMP anyway?

[fuzzybelly]

Dec 9, 2013 16:09:25 GMT -9 NeverSummer said:

What a bummer. They showed someone how to find caches, but not how to write a meaningful log. That irked me, but I had to let it go. My caches were among those found and logged "TFTC", and until I saw the explaination log on the one, I was a little ruffled up.

One of the things I like to explain to newer cachers is that a lot of cache hiders love hearing the story behind the find. The scenery along the way, the enjoyment and satisfaction of the find, or the peaceful experience they had along the way to GZ.

[fuzzybelly]

My posts, whether "found it" or "DNF" tend to cater to the hider, if I know them. and I like writing more than less.

Whether I know the hider or not, I like to at least mention the cachers name and thank them for the hide, ie; I enjoyed the hunt. Thanks for the smiley fuzzy.

I love finding Ladybugkids and blazzingpathway hides. They always mean something or bring me to a wonderful place, and I know they like hearing about the experience I had while I was out on my adventure that they helped create. Then I get to share the fun I had with their cache.

[SSO JOAT]

Exactly. Especially with new cachers, you need to teach them right from the beginning. Showing them how to do it the cheap way isn't helping the game at all.

[akgh519]

I like to read about the hunt of those who decide to pursue some of the more complex ET hides or the out there caches I have hidden.

I wrote some logs while in Pennsylvania that were a typical log for what I write when hiking out to a cache that involves some time and effort relaying what I saw and the experience. I received four emails from four different cache owners who were astonished and surprised at the length, detail and pics that I included in my log. I told them that is the Alaska way and that I had done so before I hid any caches but even more so after I hid several caches. The experience of getting to the cache and what I 'see' when I get to GZ is as enjoyable to me as finding the container.

One of the funniest days caching I have had was a hike all the way to Matanuska Peak and the cache was missing and it was snowing...in July!

I appreciate all who do as I have learned to do from you.

Thanks

[ladybugkids]

Dec 9, 2013 21:58:57 GMT -9 akgh519 said:

One of the funniest days caching I have had was a hike all the way to Matanuska Peak and the cache was missing and it was snowing...in July!

Yup...alomost more fun than a Barrel of Monkeys! A classic EPIC DNF featuring 6000' of elevation gain that I remember fondly. I thought I'd loaded photos to complement yours, but apparently not. I'll be circling back to do that.

[ladybugkids]

Dec 9, 2013 19:29:31 GMT -9 SSO JOAT said:

Not to pick nits, but...

Sept 20, 2013 7:21:22 GMT -9 ladybugkids said:

So, are we GeAKs, or twits, or perhaps both?

You did. Once.

[freeweez]

Just have to chime in on this topic....when I first was introduced to Geocaching just a few years ago...I was taught by my son-in-law and family- team WOCM. Larry (son-in-law) guided me through the process as he 'learned along the way' (read: self-taught) - and told me to always write TFTC at the end of my log as a way of giving thanks to the CO. Remember--there are few cachers in the Seward area...so he had no one to cache with/learn from. That family is basically "self-taught". I remember he was printing out the entire log sheets on paper...until we figured out how to 'download' to the GPS! I appreciate this conversation as it brings a different meaning to TFTC...at least for me. I didn't even realize until a year or more later that cache owners read the logs! yes-- uninformed. There is just SO very much to teach new cachers....so I hope if someone posts a 'TFTC' and they are new to caching---the CO won't take that personally. good comments here. thanks!

[NeverSummer]

I still put TFTC on the end of logs, but never as a standalone long. To me, I use it at the end of the log to say just as it was originally intended.

[akgh519]

I also close with TFTC or some variant of it.
As a cache owner, I read the logs. Akerdocs plight and multiple logs on GC48D1H Cuckoo Clock have become a frequent read for me. He gives a recap of each of his trips without giving anything about the cache away. Check it out!

[fuzzybelly]

I'll use TFTC before or after, so long as it's accompanied by more.

How about SL TN LN? Is that better than the stand alone TFTC?