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Post by caprahircus on Nov 21, 2010 15:02:16 GMT -9
Okay, I spent the time after work Friday and all day yesterday trying to play a little catch-up. Here's where I stand this morning: - 00 - Whereigo
- 03 - Multi
- 00 - Virtual
- 18 - Mystery
- 66 - Traditional
So unfortunately, I am STILL behind where I was when I went on vacation. Sigh! I suppose it could have been much worse! At least I have a couple of the Mystery caches solved and ready to go. I just need to hike to the final GZs.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 26, 2010 18:30:54 GMT -9
I think I am getting near to the point of having recovered the ground I lost during my holidays. Here it is as of this evening: - 00 - Whereigo
- 02 - Multi
- 00 - Virtual
- 18 - Mystery
- 58 - Traditional
I'm still having trouble reaching the Under-50 mark. Hey! Any of you GSAK gurus know how to use the polygon feature? Can it be part of a filter?
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Post by NorthWes on Nov 26, 2010 19:51:55 GMT -9
I think I am getting near to the point of having recovered the ground I lost during my holidays. Here it is as of this evening: - 00 - Whereigo
- 02 - Multi
- 00 - Virtual
- 18 - Mystery
- 58 - Traditional
I'm still having trouble reaching the Under-50 mark. Hey! Any of you GSAK gurus know how to use the polygon feature? Can it be part of a filter? I'm firmly in the over-50 mark* I'm gonna be in big trouble if the next thing I've got to teach about GSAK is how to be polygonous...** * in fact, I'm in the over-500 mark! LOL! ** I've used it a bit. It is possible to use it as part of a filter (designed to be used that way!) You must define the polygon in a way that makes the beginning & ending points share the same coordinates.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 26, 2010 20:28:03 GMT -9
I think that is going to be the key as to whether or not I can work out the different Anchorage Sweepsteaks levels. It doesn't work with a circle. They same will go for sweeps in other areas I think. Scott was talking about Kenai/Soldotna. Maybe Jeff can look at the valley area.
For Anchorage, I started thinking about four different levels: BRONZE - to include urban traditionals only, SILVER - All but Mystery caches, GOLD - include Mystery caches, and Platinum - everything inside the the boundary formed by the Arctic-to-Indian trail (that I am working on)
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Post by SSO JOAT on Nov 27, 2010 0:57:13 GMT -9
With the bronze through platinum levels you've defined, I can certainly fit this into the Kenai. Will let you know what I come up with. Polygons are easy. However, fitting them into GSAK will be a new test for me. Will this be something we are going to bounce through a board meeting since it is more of a GeAK sponsored challenge? BTW... you might get a real slow down on your gold and platinum goals because of Doug's Illogical Illusions. I tell you, I've got some fair leads, but I'm banging my head on the wall trying to find the "logic" to put the pieces together.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 27, 2010 5:29:32 GMT -9
I think this will be sponsored individually at first because the Board will have enough on its plate. If we can establish it well, then adopting it out may be an option later. I would like to make it such that the forum here is an integral part of the quests.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 27, 2010 5:33:04 GMT -9
Yes, I go back and look at Doug's puzzle occasionally and realize that I haven't a clue. One of the thoughts was to make it some percentage of the caches. That wouldn't be a pure sweep, though.
We could switch the GOLD to the Arctic-Indian Trail boundary excluding the mystery caches. Then add the Mystery caches in for the PLATINUM level. That actually makes some sense to me. Would that match the conditions in your area?
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Post by SSO JOAT on Nov 27, 2010 8:10:50 GMT -9
So, perhaps we need to define these 4 levels into some generic criteria that can be fit to any geographic region (not focused on Anchorage, but would apply just as well anywhere). That gives everyone the same starting point and you need only define the geographic zone to apply it to. First, you define the maximum geographical boundary of the area using whatever geometric method that will fit (circle, rectangle, polygon, etc). Then you apply the following: Bronze Sweep = All traditional caches with D/T rating of 4/4 or less in a smaller, centralized geographic figure that is perhaps 75% of the maximum area. Silver Sweep = Completion of Bronze plus 100% of all D/T ratings of traditionals as well as all multi and virtual caches in that smaller region. Gold Sweep = Completion of Silver with the addition of all the larger geographical area's traditional, multi, and virtual caches. Platinum Sweep = Completion of Gold plus 100% of the Whereigo and Mystery caches in the maximum geographic area. Note, I'd place Whereigo alongside Mystery as it requires special equipment to complete, and thus should be closer to the top than the bottom of the chart, IMHO. These can be applied to the Kenai fairly easy and I have a fairly good idea about geographical divisions. ;D When I do get Illogical Illusions figured out... well,
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 27, 2010 20:02:27 GMT -9
Woohoo! I knocked off five more traditionals and one more mystery on a snow-play day with Cavy and Blindman.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 27, 2010 20:07:35 GMT -9
So, perhaps we need to define these 4 levels into some generic criteria that can be fit to any geographic region (not focused on Anchorage, but would apply just as well anywhere). That gives everyone the same starting point and you need only define the geographic zone to apply it to. First, you define the maximum geographical boundary of the area using whatever geometric method that will fit (circle, rectangle, polygon, etc). Then you apply the following: Bronze Sweep = All traditional caches with D/T rating of 4/4 or less in a smaller, centralized geographic figure that is perhaps 75% of the maximum area. Silver Sweep = Completion of Bronze plus 100% of all D/T ratings of traditionals as well as all multi and virtual caches in that smaller region. Gold Sweep = Completion of Silver with the addition of all the larger geographical area's traditional, multi, and virtual caches. Platinum Sweep = Completion of Gold plus 100% of the Whereigo and Mystery caches in the maximum geographic area. Note, I'd place Whereigo alongside Mystery as it requires special equipment to complete, and thus should be closer to the top than the bottom of the chart, IMHO. These can be applied to the Kenai fairly easy and I have a fairly good idea about geographical divisions. ;D When I do get Illogical Illusions figured out... well, I'm thinking that the basic premise of this challenge is coming together, I like the manner in which you've laid it out. At least for the moment, it makes sense to me. Can we set up a set of basic GSAK databases for the regions and use that to regularly post (or post upon request) the results of an appropriate filter? I'm an amateur here trying to think of the logistics of making the final list for a person to chase.
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Post by ladybugkids on Nov 27, 2010 22:42:41 GMT -9
I played with this a bit tonight...try the following:
1) Open GSAK 2) Go to Tools > GSAK polygon/line drawing tool. Click "OK" which will open a GSAK Google Maps window. 3) Click "Start Polygon" and click on your first point. Define your polygon by clicking around the area you want. You may zoom in and out and click between map, satellite, terrain, topo, and my topo to be sure your polygon is defining the area you want. 4) Choose Output > CSV. 5) Copy the coordinate set by selecting all coordinate pairs in the output box dragging over them (or right-clicking, select all) by right-clicking, copy. 6) Return to GSAK and select Search > Filter > Arc/Poly. 7) Place cursor in the Arc/Polygon points box, right click > paste your coordinate sets that define your polygon. 8) Select Filter Type > Polygon 9) Save > and give your polygon filter a name (like Anchorage Bowl Challenge) 10) Go
This will give you a list of caches within the polygon. You can then copy that list of caches to a new GSAK database and run your "unfound" filter against it.
You could post the coordinate pairs for each region here in the forums and people can copy and paste them into their own GSAK filter beginning at Step 6 above. The example Anchorage Bowl polygon I drew is:
61.160463,-150.125427 60.964443,-149.651642 60.918420,-149.342651 60.914414,-149.135284 60.969775,-149.035034 61.066924,-149.098206 61.110079,-149.357758 61.116050,-149.396210 61.156488,-149.419556 61.186287,-149.460754 61.245139,-149.536285 61.264951,-149.658508 61.259009,-149.834290 61.190258,-150.106201 61.160463,-150.125427
if you want to try it out, but note that I spent ZERO time trying to define the exact eastern and northern boundaries.
Running the above polygon against my broader GSAK Southcentral Alaska database yielded 165 unfounds for me.
2 events 5 multis 15 puzzles 143 traditionals
Happy plotting!
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Post by SSO JOAT on Nov 28, 2010 0:52:29 GMT -9
Excellent! Will use this to start forming the official Kenai zones.
I have an idea in mind for breaking the peninsula into 2 or 3 regions. Once I have them, I'll post the poly coords as LBK described.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 28, 2010 5:20:56 GMT -9
Sweet! Once we have a defined polygon, would it be better to try and lead a "player" through a procedure of running the filter on their GSAK? Or is there a way to provide them a GSAK output that they can run a comparison on their find list? Either way, we will have to help a player make the determination of their balance (as Mike is helping me here).
Another question - Do we leave this as a moving target (as I am doing for my personal quest)? Or do we, say, have a player pick a point when they are within 50 (or 100, or a percentage) of the goal and freeze the objective for them (with a time limit for completion of the frozen list)?
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Post by SSO JOAT on Nov 28, 2010 5:45:03 GMT -9
My suggestion... I would say it is a "moving target" up to the final 10%. Once you're within sight of completion, it is frozen for 30 days. If not completed in that time, you have to take another snap shot, as long as they are still within 10% of completion.
Here's another thing that might come up- After you complete a level, any new caches that are published after your "snap shot" would still have to be completed before you can claim the next higher sweep level even if they are not required for getting the current level during that 30 day period. So you couldn't get a snap shot for Bronze and Silver at the same time. You complete Bronze, then to go for Silver you have to create a new snap shot at the time you finished Bronze (as long as you're already within the 10% of completion window).
Naturally, disabled caches wouldn't count towards any of these numbers. But I'd also recommend that a means of challenging a bad cache is made available. If there is one of those abandoned caches that has a string of DNFs with no owner to be found, there needs to be a way to challenge that and have it removed from the required list.
An official set of rules would need to be generated from all of this discussion, so that's why I'm trying to come up with such details.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 28, 2010 6:54:25 GMT -9
Absolutely! And I am enjoying the thought processes going into it. Other features of this effort should it come to pass are: 1) How to incorporate the use of this forum in the quests (for encouragement, queries, etc.), 2) Some sort of recognition (inexpensive but classy swag) for those that complete any of the quests, and 3) Possibly petition groundspeak to allow them to be posted as caches once we get a clean set of guidelines.
Mike, I know you will be better able to guide us in the last. Having the quest completion as an official cache is NOT a prerequisite for pursuing this. We can cross that bridge when we get closer to having clarity on the process.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 28, 2010 6:57:36 GMT -9
Excellent! Will use this to start forming the official Kenai zones. I have an idea in mind for breaking the peninsula into 2 or 3 regions. Once I have them, I'll post the poly coords as LBK described. Are you picturing the entire Kenai Peninsula for the GOLD? Or are there smaller subsets that are more logical in a geographic sense? I know it isn't possible to cover every area and that they as a matter of the BONZE level need to be centered around urban locales.
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Post by GreatlandReviewer on Nov 28, 2010 8:24:45 GMT -9
3) Possibly petition groundspeak to allow them to be posted as caches once we get a clean set of guidelines. Mike, I know you will be better able to guide us in the last. Having the quest completion as an official cache is NOT a prerequisite for pursuing this. We can cross that bridge when we get closer to having clarity on the process. Follow this link to Groundspeak's Knowledge Book entry about Challenge Caches to see what they will and will not support. If you meet the criteria outlined in the Knowledge Books, publishing the Challenge caches will be straightforward. If your concept doesn't meet each of the criterion, but still feel you have a valid Challenge cache concept, your local reviewer can run your ideas past the rest of the reviewer team for input. If the reviewers as a group still say "no go," the cache owner can run the concept through the Groundspeak appeals process.
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Post by Malcore on Nov 28, 2010 17:52:54 GMT -9
Well I have been following this thread for a while now and it looks like you are getting most of the details worked out. So I figured I would test and see if I could figure out how to do it. I followed LBK's directions and after a little guessing on some points I think I got it right. I think right now it may be to tough for the average gsak user to figure out how to do, but if a set of easy to follow instructions can be set up it will be easier. Another thing to figure out is the exact PQ to generate to cover the whole area without to much extra. some people wouldn't be able to make a PQ of less then 1000 if there was to wide of an area. Doing multiple PQ's would helpful but the overlap is sometimes hard to do and get full coverage.
Using LBK's test coords I came up with the following: 2 event 8 earth 16 multi 57 puzzle 462 traditional
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Post by ladybugkids on Nov 28, 2010 19:13:29 GMT -9
Doing multiple PQ's would helpful but the overlap is sometimes hard to do and get full coverage. One can avoid overlapping PQs by setting one's PQs using the "placed during" option. One can currently get the entire state with four 1000 cache PQs and plus a fifth very small PQ now that Alaska currently has 4005 active caches with no overlap. Here are the dates that one can use...they don't max out each query at 1000 caches because caches have been archived since I created them or I didn't mess around trying to get them at exactly 1000 caches, but they get the job done using only one day's five query quota: 1/1/2000 to 4/15/2007: 990 caches 4/16/2007 to 7/31/2008: 987 caches 8/1/2008 to 11/30/2009: 972 caches 12/1/2009 to 10/15/2010: 929 caches 10/16/2010 to 11/30/2010: 124 caches At the continued acceleration of cache placement in Alaska, I expect a sixth PQ will be needed by next summer.
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Post by SSO JOAT on Nov 28, 2010 19:25:21 GMT -9
Are you picturing the entire Kenai Peninsula for the GOLD? Or are there smaller subsets that are more logical in a geographic sense? I know it isn't possible to cover every area and that they as a matter of the BONZE level need to be centered around urban locales. The Kenai is easy to visualize into 2 distinct geographic regions that are naturally divided by the wildlife refuge's anti-cache policy. I made my first polygon in GSAK and it was pretty simple to do. I basically just started at the southern shore of Turnagain Arm west of Hope, and drew a line straight down through the wildlife refuge until I hit the Gulf of Alaska. Then I followed the beach around the southern side of the peninsula and up Cook Inlet until tying back in to the starting point. This gets every cache from Sterling to Nikiski to Seldovia. When I ran a filter on that to eliminate my hides and finds, I have 99 caches left to complete that region, most of them being down in Homer. So, the only question is, does one want to include such technically difficult caches as those that require a boat to go from Homer to Seldovia and stop at various islands and hiking trails on the south side of Kachemak Bay? Or, should the area be reduced so that it only encompasses road-system accessible caches? Looking at the east side of the peninsula, there is a natural geographic zone that includes everything from Cooper Landing to Seward and up through the Pass to Whittier. I haven't built and run a poly for that area yet, but it would include a LOT of 5-star remote caches, thus would be exceedingly difficult for anyone to complete that entire zone. I don't recall if this was discussed at any point, but what about Earthcaches? Include those at the Platinum level? Or ignore along with events?
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Post by ladybugkids on Nov 28, 2010 19:48:36 GMT -9
I don't recall if this was discussed at any point, but what about Earthcaches? Include those at the Platinum level? Or ignore along with events? I can't think of why earthcaches would be ignored. I could see where events would be excluded because of their temporary nature.
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Post by ladybugkids on Nov 28, 2010 19:51:19 GMT -9
I followed LBK's directions and after a little guessing on some points I think I got it right. I think right now it may be to tough for the average gsak user to figure out how to do, but if a set of easy to follow instructions can be set up it will be easier. Can you provide feedback on where "guessing" was required. I tried to list each of the steps required so folks could run their own filter.
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Post by GreatlandReviewer on Nov 28, 2010 20:00:54 GMT -9
If there is one of those abandoned caches that has a string of DNFs with no owner to be found, there needs to be a way to challenge that and have it removed from the required list. Groundspeak has an easy way to address problem caches like this. It's the "Needs Archive" log type which is automatically forwarded to the local reviewer for action. The local reviewer will typically look at the cache logs, the cache owner's log in history, drop a reviewer note on the cache page requesting cache owner follow-up with a deadline for response, place the cache on a bookmark list, and ultimately archive the cache if there is no response.
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Post by Malcore on Nov 28, 2010 21:26:03 GMT -9
I followed LBK's directions and after a little guessing on some points I think I got it right. I think right now it may be to tough for the average gsak user to figure out how to do, but if a set of easy to follow instructions can be set up it will be easier. Can you provide feedback on where "guessing" was required. I tried to list each of the steps required so folks could run their own filter. Well the main thing I had problems figuring out is, when going into the polygon creating part I couldn't figure out how to enter each coord point. Then after a bit of trying I realized I didn't need to. Only the person setting up the original polygon needs to do that step. I finally figured out that I only need to go to the filter part of the instructions and copy and past the list of coords into there. After that it was easy to select each cache type to get each of my totals. I did try to save the poly filter and then find the file it created in the hard drive to see if the file can just be posted for others to dl, but for some reason I couldn't find a separate file being generated. Maybe someone else can figure that out. Also thanks for reminding me about using the dates in PQ's to get all the caches without overlap, I had forgot about that.
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Post by SSO JOAT on Nov 29, 2010 5:08:33 GMT -9
You don't need to enter any coord points in the poly thingamabob. When you open the google map polygon builder, you click the "start" button at the top left and click on the map, then click on the next point, and the next, until you've traced out your polygon. The last step is to click back on the first point to close the loop.
As you were doing that, the box on the right side of the screen is automatically building the list of coordinates in text format. Just highlight the whole block of coords and copy (Ctrl-C). Then go back to GSAK. In the GSAK filter-bulder, go to the poly tab. There is some help text already in the box where the coords go. You can ignore that or delete it all, but paste (Ctrl-V) your block of coordinates in there. Then you can set up the rest of your filter criteria as desired.
If we come up with some polygon coordinates standardized for each region, all people would have to do is copy them from a post here in the forum and paste them into the filter tool of GSAK. It's actually pretty easy stuff.
The other thing we should do is create a Center Point and Radius distance to go along with each polygon. That way folks can make a PQ that will grab all the caches needed to "overflow" the polygon. Then the poly filter can cut off the stuff that isn't needed.
I'll post a sample of all this from the Kenai area as soon as I finish getting the numbers figured out just right.
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Post by ladybugkids on Nov 29, 2010 7:47:54 GMT -9
The other thing we should do is create a Center Point and Radius distance to go along with each polygon. That way folks can make a PQ that will grab all the caches needed to "overflow" the polygon. Then the poly filter can cut off the stuff that isn't needed. The Anchorage bowl polygon has about ~1500 caches in it based on my very rough sketch, so more than one PQ will be required. Trying to define two circles to pull in all the caches would be more of a challenge than just setting up the queries to run by date.
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Post by SSO JOAT on Nov 29, 2010 8:40:49 GMT -9
I just use a single circle & center point, but break the group in half by container. I have one PQ that gets just the micros. I have a second one that grabs everything else. Otherwise, the 2 PQs are setup identical. Each of them is currently grabbing nearly 800 caches, so I might have to break it down again pretty soon and start using 3 PQs to pull Anchorage.
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Post by ladybugkids on Nov 29, 2010 10:17:45 GMT -9
I just use a single circle & center point, but break the group in half by container. I have one PQ that gets just the micros. I have a second one that grabs everything else. Otherwise, the 2 PQs are setup identical. Each of them is currently grabbing nearly 800 caches, so I might have to break it down again pretty soon and start using 3 PQs to pull Anchorage. Very good. I believe Blazingpathways mentioned that technique during the October PQ or November GSAK FUNdamentals classes. That will work nicely regionally for a given centerpoint and radius.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 29, 2010 10:19:37 GMT -9
Man! I go to bed and see that you boys have been up late! And I am learning even more about PQs!
Earthcaches - I would posit that they might go in the PLATINUM level with the Mysteries (or at a minimum the GOLD)
I was looking at where I might want to set the inner polygon for Anchorage ... and then realized that I still haven't finished getting GoogleEarth to work with my Windows 7.
The north boundary is easy as it can be drawn from out in the Inlet due east across Elmendorf to the Glenn Hwy at the Ft Richardson boundary.
The east boundary can go straight south to Glen Alps Rd (just inside the Ft Richardson west limits) This would be just west ot The Watcher and just east of Silver Fern Spur Trail.
At the intersection with Glen Alps Rd, draw a line southwest into the inlet (just south of Woodsy and Sno-Blo). This will need to go far enough into the Inlet/Turnagain Arm to be able to capture Pop Quiz (even though that's a mystery cache).
Go northwest to a point between Kincaid Park and Fire Island
Then due north to close the five-sided polygon.
I can get coordinates at the intersections once I get my Google Earth functioning. Sorry!
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Post by SSO JOAT on Nov 29, 2010 21:00:35 GMT -9
After some consideration and pondering over the layout of all exisitng caches on the western Kenai, I've come up with this reproducable set of criteria for defining the larger zone. In doing so, I decided that I would in fact not include Seldovia and the southern 5-star Kachemak bay caches in the sweep zone. Just as the 5-star PWS caches along the eastern side of the peninsula shouldn't be included in a still-to-be-defined Seward zone. So, a western Kenai poly is built by starting at the outlet of Otter Creek on Cook Inlet north of Cpt Cook Park. Go east to the easternmost point of Swan Lake (north of Sterling). Go south to the Kenai River outlet of Skilak Lake. Continue south to the easternmost point of Caribou Island in Tustumena Lake. Continue south to the easternmost point of Homer's East End Road where it meets the head of Kachemak Bay. Follow the center of the bay out to the most south easterly point of the Homer Spit. From here, generally follow the mean low tide level all the way up Cook Inlet until you tie back into the mouth of Otter Creek. It takes a half-dozen or so points to run the coastline up the Inlet. So, even without the list of coordinates, anyone should be able to build the same polygon for that area based on the landmark points. I've been having some additional thoughts about the breakup of the BSG&P levels. I think a little bit more separation between them is in order. The Bronze should be an easier "carrot" to entice more people to play. And you don't want it to be such a short trip from Bronze to Platinum that once they get Bronze it only takes a few days and a dozen caches to work through the entire package. Take a look at the breakup of Earthcache mastery levels. It takes some real effort to work your way up. I think that making the journey to reach Bronze very difficult, but the added steps to get the remaining 3 is fairly short doesn't do the whole concept much justice. Or maybe there needs to be more than 4 levels. We could start with Iron or Aluminum...
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