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Post by SSO JOAT on Oct 1, 2010 0:55:11 GMT -9
All the grumbling about people putting out new caches has just about inspired me to start placing puzzle caches in Anchorage and publish them one at a time as you get close to your goal!!!
Just kidding. My mind just comes up with this stuff on its own. I have little control over it. ;-)
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Post by caprahircus on Oct 2, 2010 5:03:04 GMT -9
You think that was grumbling!? Just wait until I approach the goal line!!!
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Post by caprahircus on Oct 3, 2010 4:29:37 GMT -9
Yesterday I managed to take a little baby step - cleared 4 traditionals but had two new traditionals and one new multi added!
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Post by SSO JOAT on Oct 3, 2010 5:09:26 GMT -9
At least you guys are getting new caches up there. I don't think there's been a new cache published in Sonai in the last 2 months and perhaps a total of 15-20 caches published for the area all summer. Not sure what the root cause is of the caching drop off down here, but I wish we could get more folks back into the game.
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Post by caprahircus on Oct 3, 2010 13:26:55 GMT -9
We will see what things can be hatched to re-energize folks.
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Post by NorthWes on Oct 9, 2010 22:07:03 GMT -9
Whew! Knocked down 16 caches today (one puzzle, two multis, and a slew of traditionals). Making terrific process on sprinkling the Bowl with smilies... only another five or six hundred to go... All joking aside, I started solo (with the rampaging PoodleKrew) over eastside chasing the Blair Witch before sunrise, and finished up by 5:30pm down south on the Potter Hill Totally Tubular Level 5 for my #1800 find today. Ladybug Kids came along for the late afternoon cache run - doing his usual great job of cache maintenance (but only AFTER I'd found the cache!).
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Post by SSO JOAT on Oct 10, 2010 4:23:00 GMT -9
Back to this Challenge cache idea...
If we come up with the criteria for some 'clean sweep' challenge caches for various regions, can we get GeAK to publish and own them? Obviously there is a physical cache that must be maintained and dealing with log verification would be required (though I'm sure the number and frequency of logs would be minimal). It would fall to the BOD to handle or delegate those duties.
The alternative is to develop the criteria for the caches and then solicit volunteers to hide, maintain, and publish them. That could even be as a joint venture with GeAK. There are some logistics to wade through.
Can the owner of a Challenge cache log his own cache once he completes said challenge? I'd never thought about that aspect before. Of course you "can" log any of your own caches, so I'm really talking about the acceptability of it more than anything.
Research may be required.
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Post by caprahircus on Oct 10, 2010 5:22:12 GMT -9
I'm hopeful that we can come up with challenges that are in fact challenges, but available for different levels of cachers.
My last day in Anchorage for a few weeks and with Cavy managed a little chipping at my residuals. Status:
01 - Whereigo 02 - Multis 00 - Virtuals 16 - Mysteries 60 - Traditionals (excluding Cavy's 3 new ones that posted this AM)
Now I will be out for a bit, so a little backstepping will probably occur. And I will probably return to significant snowfall at least up at elevation.
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Post by nccachegeek on Oct 10, 2010 5:25:58 GMT -9
Can the owner of a Challenge cache log his own cache once he completes said challenge? I'd never thought about that aspect before. Of course you "can" log any of your own caches, so I'm really talking about the acceptability of it more than anything. Research may be required. Yes you can log your own challenge cache. I had one in Ohio and in talking with the reviewer he casually mentioned that as long as the owner completes the challenge he may log his own cache. I would be willing to hide a cache as part of the challenge.
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Post by NorthWes on Oct 10, 2010 6:17:01 GMT -9
I'm hopeful that we can come up with challenges that are in fact challenges, but available for different levels of cachers. My last day in Anchorage for a few weeks and with Cavy managed a little chipping at my residuals. Status: 01 - Whereigo 02 - Multis 00 - Virtuals 16 - Mysteries 60 - Traditionals (excluding Cavy's 3 new ones that posted this AM) Now I will be out for a bit, so a little backstepping will probably occur. And I will probably return to significant snowfall at least up at elevation. Wow! You're within striking distance of attaining the goal, Capra! Enjoy the time away...
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Post by ladybugkids on Oct 10, 2010 7:41:14 GMT -9
From the Groundspeak Knowledge Books on Challenge Caches: "4.9. Challenge Caches A challenge cache requires that geocachers meet a geocaching-related qualification or series of tasks before the challenge cache can be logged (Waymarking and Wherigo qualify too, of course). The additional qualification or tasks are considered the basis of a challenge cache, rather than ALRs (Additional Logging Requirements). Challenge caches vary in scope and format, but all challenge caches must be in the affirmative and require that something be accomplished. Challenge cache owners must demonstrate that the challenge is attainable. Reviewers may ask the cache owner to demonstrate that they have previously met the challenge and/or that a substantial number of other geocachers would be able to do so. Importantly, cache owners must consider how they will substantiate claims that the challenge has been met. The logging requirements on the cache page must reflect this consideration, and must be logistically viable. Challenge cache owners may also be asked to outline a long-term cache maintenance plan. Some points to consider when creating a challenge cache: 1. It is generally considered "bad form" to log one's own physical cache. 2. Basing a challenge cache solely on some aspects of geocaching, such as FTFs, may severely limit the number of cachers who can achieve the challenge. 3. Basing a challenge cache on non-accomplishments, such as DNFs, will likely prevent the cache page from being published. 4. Challenge caches may not require the publication of a new cache as a logging requirement. 5. Challenge caches may not require cachers to log caches that are disabled or archived. 6. An individual's attempt to complete a challenge should be independent of the actions of other cachers. A challenge is supposed to recognize the completion of an achievement, rather than the winner of a competition. 7. Requiring cachers to find an explicit list of caches (rather than a broader category of caches) will likely prevent publication of the cache listing. 8. Using a challenge cache to promote one's own caches will likely prevent publication of the cache listing. 9. The cache's true coordinates must appear on the cache page, so that the cacher need not email the cache owner for coordinates. Cache owners are reminded that some caches may appear to meet the listing requirements, but Reviewers as experienced cachers may see additional concerns that a cache owner may not have noticed, and consequently the cache page may not be publishable. As with all caches, each challenge cache is reviewed and published or denied on its own merits, and some grandfathered caches do exist out there which would not be publishable today." I italicized the items that have come up in discussion in this thread that could be issues. GeocacheAlaska! does not currently have a policy on physical cache ownership.
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Post by caprahircus on Oct 10, 2010 18:16:21 GMT -9
Yep, that italicized phrase is the one I am mulling heavily on how to do it. This is of course assuming we do challenge "caches" and not something that is totally GeocacheAlaska! Part of this was to generate a bit of traction for the forums here.
To regress, as a challenge CACHE, we would need to determine if we can define the requirement of a sweep in a broad enough manner to be acceptable.
Perhaps a GSAK snapshot of a defined polygon when a cacher gets within a certain number of caches in a sweep. That would lock in that cacher's goal (so it would not be chasing a moving target). Then give them X number of days, weeks, or months to complete that final set. If not completed a new snapshot would be required and the clock restarted.
Define areas for different levels of difficulty. Only traditionals with a smaller extent than what I am trying, only puzzles, night caches, etc. I wouldn't want to lock it in for just the maniacal group in which I belong.
If we can formulate a plan, I would like to see these caches owned and maintained by GeocacheAlaska! and I would be more than happy to sponsor it for board discussion. Blazingpathways' Pern series was a phenomenal design!
If we can't come up with a format acceptable to Groundspeak, then we can examine the option of it just being Alaska sponsored GeoQuests.
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Post by SSO JOAT on Oct 10, 2010 18:26:26 GMT -9
Re #7...
If the challenge defines a very specific geographical area and then requires the cacher to find every currently active traditional cache in that area with a D/T rating of less than 4.5/4.5, does that make it an "explicit list"? The cache 'list' that one must find would change frequently based on publishing and removal of caches in the region, so that seems to suggest the list isn't "explicit".
I've been informed that having the cacher provide a "my finds" PQ to demonstrate completion of the challenge may be in violation of the PQ sharing rules. So the logistics of confirming completion of such a blackout challenge might be difficult for an area such as Anchorage, though the cache owner could probably do it with GSAK fairly easily as long as they pull a PQ of the area on the day that a cacher claims completion of the challenge.
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Post by ladybugkids on Oct 10, 2010 18:58:37 GMT -9
A Challenge cache that was submitted for a state park outside Alaska specified all caches placed inside the state park must be found to meet the challenge. The cache was not published as submitted and recommendations were made that "something like, "find any 50", or "find at least 50% of the available caches"" might fly. The cache owner instead opted to post it as a 35+ stage multi cache.
A better solution to a personal PQ would be a bookmark list maintained by the cacher. If the bookmark list is "shared," the cache owner can then run a pocket query off it to compare against "the list." It's been challenging enough for the owners of the "well-balanced cacher" (find all 81 D/T combinations) challenges to verify completion of the challenge, much less what you guys are talking about that will require validation of several hundred cache finds.
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Post by SSO JOAT on Oct 11, 2010 1:05:20 GMT -9
I believe I'm starting to like the direction that CH is leaning on this. Instead of an official challenge cache (and all the associate headaches with a challenge of this magnitude), perhaps some kind of internal GeAK Quest would be the appropriate method. Will have to mull this over a bit and let my puzzle-maker (gray matter) peel away at some of the logistics issues.
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Post by caprahircus on Oct 11, 2010 5:25:51 GMT -9
If we trust a geocacher to run the snapshot only when within 100 (or 50 or 25) of the stated objective, the confirmation with bookmarks wouldn't be extremely onerous. There will always be those that bend or violate the guidelines, but who cares? The majority will follow just for the fun.
Mike (with your Reviewer hat on), would having a geocacher run a personal final cache list that meets the challenge guidelines fall under the criteria?
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Post by ladybugkids on Oct 11, 2010 6:18:30 GMT -9
I believe I'm starting to like the direction that CH is leaning on this. Instead of an official challenge cache (and all the associate headaches with a challenge of this magnitude), perhaps some kind of internal GeAK Quest would be the appropriate method. I am unfamiliar with the "Quest" concept. Can someone provide a link?
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Post by SSO JOAT on Oct 11, 2010 6:41:15 GMT -9
Not sure if there is a link to such as I just yanked the term "quest" out of the air as a synonym of what is being suggested.
That is that this "challenge" is done outside of GroundSpeak on a local level, if I understand Paul's reasoning here. So, it is GeAK that outlines the "rules" for claiming a geographical blackout area. When the cacher finds 100% of the caches in that area, it is GeAK that rewards said cacher with token, title, and knighthood. It avoids all challenge cache issues since it isn't a cache or anything that GS is hosting. It would just be an Alaskan thing with honors posted on the GeAK website, the forums, etc.
CH, am I getting close to your idea here?
As for GS, if they won't allow a Challenge to require a 100% sweep, what is the upper limit that they will allow?
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Post by GreatlandReviewer on Oct 11, 2010 9:04:18 GMT -9
If we trust a geocacher to run the snapshot only when within 100 (or 50 or 25) of the stated objective, the confirmation with bookmarks wouldn't be extremely onerous. There will always be those that bend or violate the guidelines, but who cares? The majority will follow just for the fun. Mike (with your Reviewer hat on), would having a geocacher run a personal final cache list that meets the challenge guidelines fall under the criteria? Based on what I can dredge up from past reviewer discussions, the following may be concerns about a Challenge cache for such a large area. I say "may," because Groundspeak philosophy about application of the guidelines is sometimes fluid as they wrestle with progressively creative cache ideas and how to serve the player community without opening the door toward anarchy. -challenge caches shouldn't have a specific list of caches. Well balanced cacher, alphabet (find 26 caches with names that begin with letter A through Z), Delorme and other challenges give the cache seeker latitude on which caches they complete in meet the challenge -area-specific "sweep" challenge caches have been modified to be something like "find any 50 caches in this park, past present or future." e.g. finding 50 out of 70 caches in a park would be fine. As long as it is not a set list of caches or all caches. There is no formal upper limit for the number of caches in a challenge, but... -...for said park with 70 caches, "that still seems like having to too many caches to find, from a too small pool to choose from." When you all finalize the concept, I can run it through the reviewer review process and provide feedback since this idea of a 1000+ cache challenge may be uncharted territory.
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Post by ladybugkids on Oct 11, 2010 9:21:07 GMT -9
If we can formulate a plan, I would like to see these caches owned and maintained by GeocacheAlaska! and I would be more than happy to sponsor it for board discussion. Blazingpathways' Pern series was a phenomenal design! I personally would like to see GeocacheAlaska! Board of Directors energies applied to meeting the stated goals of the organization for which we still have a long way to go. That said, managing this type of challenge/quest may not take very much time given the relatively low participation rate in other challenges such as the "Denali Summiteers Challenge," "Borough and Census Area Challenge," and "Southcentral Alaska Challenge." The Denali Summiteers Challenge requires logging only five caches over 4000' elevation (a very small subset of the Anchorage Bowl Challenge being discussed here), yet it hasn't generated much interest. I asked for a link to a "Quest" because I've heard of other cachers talking about various quests, but have never viewed one online, so I thought Capra Hircus and SSO JOAT may have had line of sight on one or more.
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Post by caprahircus on Oct 12, 2010 3:09:33 GMT -9
There was a set of cachers in Michigan that created a couple of quests (for which the reward was a specially designed pathtag). You were required to find caches in which the first letter spelled out "DISTINGUISHED STASHES" and post it as a bookmark. It would have probably qualified under the guidelines you've posted, but they chose to do it outside of Groundspeak and there was no specific cache associated with completion. This was as SSO has called out.
In my mind, I'm thinking more of a subset of what I am attempting in Anchorage in order to garner more participation; maybe bronze, silver, gold, and platinum levels.
I agree with not being for GeocacheAlaska! to manage. It's just something I am thinking of trying in cahoots with other devious-minded cachers.
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Post by caprahircus on Oct 13, 2010 18:45:51 GMT -9
Yep! I get back to Illinois and watch the slow progression backwards!! It is as I expected.
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Post by SSO JOAT on Oct 13, 2010 22:15:52 GMT -9
Ha! Most see new caches as opportunity. There is even a new cache in Valdez that I might have to do a drive-by on as I depart first thing in the morning (yes, I'm still in Valdez as the gov't dropped in with a "surprise" response drill for the last 3 days forcing me into OT - hopefully I will make it back to Soldotna with enough time to get to the Eduvent tonight). And there are 3 new caches out in Nikiski to go see. I might have gotten a crack at FTFs if I hadn't been forced into extra work. Those 3 didn't get a first log until today. The never ending debate... work OT or get FTF. Not sure if man will ever settle that one. Not to mention I've added a handful of solved puzzles to my list of Anchorage caches to hunt down and log. We're talking about making a full day trip to Anchorage on one of the next 2 weekends and should be able to squeeze those in between shopping stops for the ladies. ;D
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Post by caprahircus on Oct 17, 2010 3:03:20 GMT -9
I will have a busy little flurry of activity when I return to Anchorage. I will definitely be watching the weather with great interest as my return date approaches.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 5, 2010 15:03:04 GMT -9
Wow! I'm back and realize just how far backwards I moved! That's okay, though. I love a challenge.
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 5, 2010 15:14:39 GMT -9
Even with low-intensity caching, I managed to add four more states and completed my first Whereigo caches. Decent!
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Post by NorthWes on Nov 7, 2010 21:08:24 GMT -9
Wow! I'm back and realize just how far backwards I moved! That's okay, though. I love a challenge. There is so much material to work with here in this post... So good to have you back in the Greatland!
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 8, 2010 10:41:32 GMT -9
Yep, nice to be back. I need to brush off all of my Polar Caching equipment now and hit it. I think I have all of the new ones loaded, so I'll start nibbling. Caching at elevation may be down for the season.
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Post by li1gray on Nov 9, 2010 20:46:54 GMT -9
welcome back, see you thursday...
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Post by caprahircus on Nov 11, 2010 11:57:14 GMT -9
Absolutely will be there!
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