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Post by Forum Admin on Sept 8, 2008 10:57:47 GMT -9
NOTE: UPDATED PERMIT NUMBER
We have a new permit for Chugach State Park. Per the permit, the largest cache allowed in the park is an ammo can! The new permit is good until 12/31/09. Thanks to Oleruns for working on and obtaining this permit for us!
There is a blanket permit that applies to all caches and it is easy to comply with this requirement. Simply place the following on the outside of the cache container: CHUGACH PARK PERMIT 08-156
If you put this in small print somewhere on the cache page, the reviewer won't slow the approval process by sending you an email with the question of if it is in the park and if the permit number is on the container.
Happy Caching!!
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Post by Malcore on Sept 8, 2008 11:09:02 GMT -9
Just a quick question. Do we have to go and change the numbers on the caches that we already have out there?
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Post by oleruns on Sept 8, 2008 12:10:48 GMT -9
No, the old ones are fine with the old permit number. I would add to please hide the containers well so other park users do not see them. I know you guys, so that's not going to be a problem
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Post by akwhodini on Sept 8, 2008 21:31:59 GMT -9
The old permit was a blanket permit with no expiration I acquired a long time back from one of my contacts. what was the purpose of obtaining a new one?
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Post by oleruns on Sept 8, 2008 22:17:04 GMT -9
In short, they said it did expire. Do you have a copy of the permit?
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Post by akwhodini on Sept 9, 2008 8:10:29 GMT -9
Yep i have the original permit issued with it stating its a blanket permit and no expiration besides the fact the the gentleman plainly stated that would not change unless in the future it was abused by geocachers and only then he might have to start placing restrictions. This being said and the fact that its been over 2 years with no incidents I dont see the problem. I guess in short if it was presented to the geocaching community back then as a blanket permit governing all cachers with no expiration I didnt understand the need for anyone to try and investigate this having no prior knowledge of the person who issued it and approved it without at the very least contacting me and I would have been glad to produce the original permit. That being said, Oh well whats done is done and I wont be losing any sleep over it I joined this sport because it is something I love doing and love meeting other cachers on the trails and at events and enjoy the quality time spent with mother nature not for the politics of it. The only reason I sought after and obtained the permit back then was to benefit the geocaching community as a whole for one and simply because there were so many that said they tried but was not successful and seemed to be a hot topic often brought up at events. Anyway Happy Caching I know i will be
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Post by oleruns on Sept 9, 2008 9:09:18 GMT -9
Looks like everything is going to be fine. Thanks for getting that permit. I'll talk to you down the road - Ole
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Post by ladybugkids on Sept 9, 2008 9:33:20 GMT -9
Without going into the gory details here (especially because I don't have them all), it was representatives from Chugach State Park that raised the concern via two separate cachers before Ole took the bull by the horns. Chugach State Parks was informed about the permit akwhodini obtained in 2005 and upon their research, they determined the 2005 permit was no longer valid. All caches placed under the 2005 permit are "grandfathered" under that permit. All new caches placed between now and December 2009 must be placed using the new permit number. The only current requirement from Chugach State Parks is that they are provided with an annual report of activity on the caches (new placements, removed/archived caches, etc.). The Geocachers of Alaska Unite? event on September 16 may provide a better forum for more in depth discussion. Many thanks to akwhodini for jumping into the fray in 2005 to get the original permit and to Oleruns for stepping up this year when there was the threat of geocaching being shut down in Chugach State Park. My hat's off to you two and any other cachers who actively engage land managers to assure the longevity of the game on public lands!!! Some of the caches in Chugach State Park are most representative of what caching can/should be about...it would have been a real shame to lose the ability to place caches there.
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Post by santabro on Sept 9, 2008 14:59:36 GMT -9
If we were going to loose the right to put out caches in the park i can understand the new permit, but since AKWhodini had a blanket permit that said it did not expire, looks like that should have been brought up. Seems like the Mgt. of the parks should file these things and go back and look at them if there is a problem or a question about a permit. Especially since their are several people in the BLM and one might not no what the other has done. That might be a good idea for geocachers too. To keep a post of important things going on and all geocachers would be able to see the post. Events are a good place to discuss items like this and then maybe the original permit would have sufficed. Just my opinion. I am sure if the original permit would have been presented with no expiration their would have been no threat of losing the right to place or hunt geo caches in the park. Seems like everyone should get together on important things like this at events before a person goes to the BLM. Then they are fully informed of what we already have.
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Post by ladybugkids on Sept 9, 2008 16:10:47 GMT -9
One point is that Chugach State Parks no longer considered the 2005 permit a blanket permit with no expiry date. As they issuing agency, they have the right to change the permitting rules as they see fit, especially as leadership within their ranks changes. Another point which apparently bears repeating is that no one approached Chugach State Park about this. Quite a few cachers were happily placing caches (me included) under the old permit when the new chief ranger raised his concerns about geolitter and social trails. When the 2005 permit was referenced, the ranger informed the cachers that the 2005 permit was no longer valid. He originally requested a meeting with representatives of the geocaching community before a new permit would be issues, but Oleruns was able to get a new permit without such a meeting. Frankly, I feel that geocachers dodged a bullet with Chugach State Parks given the negative opinion about geocaching that the ranger expressed. I think it would serve us well as a group to support the work of others who make the effort to maintain a positive relationship with the land managers. Regarding BLM (a federal, not state agency)...they are allowing geocaching on BLM land without a permit. They only asked that caches in the "bear zone" of Campbell Creek be moved outside the exclusion zone. The Alaskan branch of BLM published a nice article about geocaching a couple of months ago.
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Post by santabro on Sept 9, 2008 17:29:36 GMT -9
I support all people who try and keep geocaching legal and on all lands, but to repeat what i said before, I think that all geo cachers should know what is going on at all times, by having events and letting the cachers know of problems before action is taken. This is the democratic way of the United States.
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Post by NorthWes on Sept 9, 2008 18:02:02 GMT -9
Another point which apparently bears repeating is that no one approached Chugach State Park about this. Quite a few cachers were happily placing caches (me included) under the old permit when the new chief ranger raised his concerns about geolitter and social trails. When the 2005 permit was referenced, the ranger informed the cachers that the 2005 permit was no longer valid. He originally requested a meeting with representatives of the geocaching community before a new permit would be issues, but Oleruns was able to get a new permit without such a meeting. Frankly, I feel that geocachers dodged a bullet with Chugach State Parks given the negative opinion about geocaching that the ranger expressed. I think it would serve us well as a group to support the work of others who make the effort to maintain a positive relationship with the land managers. Sorry there's so much confusion over how the 2005 permit issue came into question with the current management at Chugach State Park (CSP). Here's an outline of what happened: - The company I work for is the contracted supplier for most forms of signage to the State of Alaska, including CSP. - CSP Chief Ranger and I were working on a trail signage project when I asked if I could use him as my 'written permission' contact for approval for an earthcache I'm developing on CSP lands (I've known this ranger for 4 years as a vendor); - CSP Chief Ranger's immediate reaction (with a vehemence I've not seen from him before) was to state 'I hate geocaches - they're nothing but litter on the park, and they promote social trails'. - I took a deep breath, and explained a bit about geocaching, asked where he'd found them etc... and he backed down quite a bit when I referenced how well-appreciated geocachers were as a land-user group by city parks and the BLM folks. He was especially pleased to hear me reference a permit but he said as far as he knew no current permits were issued to geocachers. He then gave me the contact name at CSP who processes permit applications. - I contacted the CSP permit person, who'd already been told by the Chief Ranger to expect a call from me about a permit. She'd already looked up the 05 permit (which akwhodini had so ably procured from his contacts back then) and made the determination that it was no longer valid (despite its notation that it didn't need renewal! Government - go figure). She also told me the Chief Ranger would review the permit app (a normal step) and would want a follow-on meeting to outline his concerns with the group. - I dumped all this info on Oleruns, Scobey and Ladybug Kids in an email several weeks ago. At the time I was covering three desks at work and working up to the middle daughter's wedding... all excuses any of us could make about being busy. Oleruns jumped on the challenge right away (despite being equally busy!) and got the job done with the CSP permit application process. - Just this afternoon I found out (as part of the ongoing work I'm doing with the folks at BLM) that the CSP Chief Ranger had asked his cohort at BLM (their Law Enforcement Ranger) what he thought of geocaching, right after I'd asked about getting approval for an earthcache. The answer he received from the BLM ranger made his concerns go away to the point that he didn't need a follow-up meeting - just a condition (which we also comply with at BLM) to keep the park informed as to cache placements and usage. Concrete proof a good reputation is extremely valuable, eh? Point is - someone has to represent the land user group known as 'geocachers' in gaining approval for caching on park lands, be they federal, state or local. To date, folks such as AKWhodini, Ladybug Kids, Oleruns, FrostG1ant and myself have been the individuals speaking up to keep the land managers appraised of how geocaching is a great park use. Speaking only for myself, that's meant countless hours teaching events and sessions for park users & managers, purchasing premium memberships for park managers so they can monitor geocaching land use, and being a spokesperson for a group which benefits broadly through the work of everyone who shows up to CITO events and to be 'field assistants' at Kincaid MOA parks training events. If we had an more centrally organized group we'd possibly have more involvement... but I for one am not really interested in hearing complaints from folks not part of the solution to keeping public lands open to caching use, period. More folks like AKWhodini (who used his personal contacts to open up CSP for the rest of us LEGALLY) are needed... not complainers!
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Post by oleruns on Sept 9, 2008 18:55:44 GMT -9
You can blame me if you want, I have big shoulders. Please note that geocaching is a minor hobby to me and that my other hobby is running. I am with USA Track & Field and I/we provide insurance for races in Chugach State Park where CSP is named as additional insured. Running is having a very hard time with races in the Park and they do A LOT of work on trailheads and trails and geocaching at this point does nothing. One side of me wonders why runners have to name CSP as additional insured and prove that runners have insurance and Geocachers do not? Why are there limits to the number of racers on a trail, geocaching there are no limits? Santa Bro you are right, we need to organize and be one voice. We need a board that can act fast to solve land use problems... We have many, we are very lucky so far. That is my humble opinion from where I sit.
I also want to make it clear from the start that I do not want or have time to serve on the board as I have enough meetings to go to.... I can tell you what a pain the I.O.C. is to deal with but not now - Ole
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Post by ladybugkids on Sept 9, 2008 22:02:12 GMT -9
I support all people who try and keep geocaching legal and on all lands, but to repeat what i said before, I think that all geo cachers should know what is going on at all times, by having events and letting the cachers know of problems before action is taken. This is the democratic way of the United States. So, how do we let ALL geocachers know all the time what is going on? Events have to be submitted for approval a minimum of two weeks in advance. The Chugach State Park permit issue blew up real quickly on us and didn't allow time for an event to be posted. These forums aren't a good place to convey information to all geocachers. In a typical day, only 20-30 Alaskan geocachers plus a bunch of visitors these pages. For example, as of 2300 hours tonight, five staff members, 17 members, and 31 guests visited today. That means only about 10% of the forum members visit the forums on a typical day. I have no way of knowing who the guests are other than their IP address, so they could be Alaskans or they could be in Europe for all I know. (Yes, I know one can trace IPs, but I'm not going to do that, just like I won't reveal who the "invisible" visitors are, either.) It's geocaching.com's policy not to provide contact information, even lists of e-mails for cachers in a given state/region. So, how can we keep everyone appraised of what's going on? Hmmm...sounds like a good reason to formalize GeocacheAlaska!, establish an Alaskan geocacher e-mail list through GeocacheAlaska! membership, and then we're off to the races with a means to inform and organize. Anyone else have other thoughts?
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Post by NorthWes on Sept 10, 2008 1:01:02 GMT -9
I believe Ladybug Kids is right on the money.
And, despite the 'grumpy' tone of my last post, I like to think that's what the majority of local cachers would like to see happen as well...
Oleruns is right on as well - we've been very fortunate thus far as a land user group in getting approvals to play across public lands. It's not overwhelmingly difficult to have a positive presence and get things done - it actually takes very little work to organize a CITO event (as an example) on MOA parklands (MOA provides all the 'tools' needed). While Oleruns is quite experienced at things like 'permits' the most important item he brought to the CSP permit was taking time to get it done. It means giving up a bit of time that would be spent afield caching... and it provides huge benefits to the geocaching community as a whole. (thanks again, ole!)
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Post by NorthWes on Sept 10, 2008 1:06:01 GMT -9
I'm going to try and have some small decals ready by this weekend's event with the CSP permit number etc imprinted on them. I'll confirm their availability at the event with a post here later in the week.
Having a little weatherproof decal with something like 'geocache approved under CSP permit #08-156' would be a nice touch on cache containers.
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Post by ladybugkids on Sept 10, 2008 6:32:23 GMT -9
Thanks, NorthWes. Those stickers will certainly look better than my typical Sharpie scrawl on the outside of the container.
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Post by tomanoble on Sept 10, 2008 7:47:24 GMT -9
Thank you to everyone who worked to resolve this issue and all who have commented on it. The loss of CSP as a playground would have been a blow to geocaching.
I agree that this type of issue is likely to keep cropping up because of the growth in popularity of geocaching. This is also a good reason to support the organization of a non-profit group to represent geocaching. I support the formation of Geocaching Alaska as a non-profit.
I also applaud the cachers who participate at the "intro to geocaching" seminars because these are our chances to introduce new caches into "proper" cache etiquette and least destructive practices. If I can get the next 2 Saturdays off I will be there to assist at the Kincaid Event.
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Broccili
Bronze Cacher
Vehicle TB212QR "Powerstroke"
Posts: 67
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Post by Broccili on Sept 12, 2008 12:51:41 GMT -9
Point is - ... purchasing premium memberships for park managers so they can monitor geocaching land use ... Open an account... publish the Bank/Account number... allow for donations. Or some other method to donate Fund$ for this type of community support. Thanks for doing the dirty work with the parks, while the rest of us enjoy GeoCaching.
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Broccili
Bronze Cacher
Vehicle TB212QR "Powerstroke"
Posts: 67
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Post by Broccili on Sept 12, 2008 13:18:37 GMT -9
First, Let me send many thanks to those that have set the foundation for a GeoCaching friendly environment throughout the state. It's great that we can go to nearly any park and find at least one Cache. And that is in no small part because of a few of you setting up meetings, writing letters, taking personal time, etc...
However, Some mention that we should organize. Others point out trouble other organized groups have with permits and parks. I believe they go hand in hand.
Organized/chartered events with groups of folks bring along liability. Someone gets hurt doing a group thing, they can hold that group (or groups - hence naming the park as an insured) accountable.
Is the intent of organization to ensure our privilege of GeoCaching in Chugach State Park remains? If we organize, will there become a third tier to GeoCaching? Currently, GeoCaching has Free Accounts and Premium Accounts, could we expect to see Alaskan Premium Accounts for GeoCaches in the CSP?
Organization brings some positive attributes: - Single point of contact for permits, land use, etc. - Collection point for funds (to help the land managers stay abreast of their land and the caches on them)
Is there really any liability associated with GeoCaching and a park? Unless it's some type of event... I understand how managers (unfamiliar with the hobby) feel that they are nothing more than 'sanctioned' trash sites. But, that can be easily countered with one or two CITO events on their property.
I don't understand what "Social Trails" are. If you aren't supposed to wander off the park provided area(s)... then I guess a GeoCache shouldn't really be there?
These are questions, reservations I have.
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Post by saidbystacy on Sept 12, 2008 21:25:44 GMT -9
I'm not so sure what you're describing is the intent of organizing GeoCache Alaska. And I don't know what you mean with "third tier accounts". I don't think any such thing would happen. I believe the intent is to make GeoCache Alaska into an entity similar to organized geocaching groups like the Washington State Geocaching Association. geocachingwa.org/Here is a blurb from their front page: The WSGA exists to:
Promote Geocaching as an exciting, family-oriented activity that increases awareness of parks and trail systems. Provide opportunities for the Geocaching community to enjoy Geocaching in the area and to meet and socialize with like-minded Geocachers. Increase awareness of Geocaching issues in the area through interaction with other outdoor activity groups, Geocaching clubs, and the public. Educate Geocachers on low-impact Geocaching and promote stewardship of our natural resources. Educate other outdoor enthusiasts on Geocaching. Represent Geocaching interests in public forums and to recreation land managers. Actively promote the "Cache In Trash Out" program to help in the maintenance of parks and trail systems. And according to WSGA, the dues paid by members go to pay for their website and upkeep, allows them to sponsor events... Just some thoughts from another perspective. In any case, everyone and anyone who is interested is invited to share their thoughts and opinions at GC1FQVT "Geocachers of Alaska Unite?" on 9/16 at 6 p.m. at Guido's. Whether you are for or against, I would suggest you attend to discuss your questions and concerns.
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Post by FrostG1anT on Sept 12, 2008 22:27:55 GMT -9
And I don't know what you mean with "third tier accounts". I don't think any such thing would happen. Groundspeak controls the accounts to play the game. There is no way for a local entity anywhere in the world to "add" fees to the Groundspeak site in order to have any sort of "locals only" hides. There are many more areas in this State that require permits than just CSP, it takes work to develop a rapport with the land managers and discover the needed steps to obtain the proper permits as each area differs. Currently the Premium membership goes to improve the servers which house the web site and the massive database behind it as well as promote geocaching through Groundspeak. Groundspeak is not affiliated with "Geocache Alaska" in any way other than that to take part in geocaching you must have some sort of "membership" to Groundspeak albeit Premium or free and by extension if you use these forums and associate yourself as a "member" of "Geocache Alaska" then there is a connection. This is a global game and the more that can be done to build and maintain a positive light on geocaching the better the game and the more people it will draw. Alaska right now is one of the greatest places to geocache and everyone should take pride in that. Lots of work has gone into the game in our great State and it shows. Let's keep working to make this a great game for all of us and for those who come visit or are new to the game.
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Post by ladybugkids on Sept 13, 2008 8:40:57 GMT -9
Many thanks to FrostG1anT and saidbystacy for their quick responses. I'll toss in my two cents' worth, too. First, Organized/chartered events with groups of folks bring along liability. Someone gets hurt doing a group thing, they can hold that group (or groups - hence naming the park as an insured) accountable. I agree gaining an understanding of the liability a group/directors take on when formally incorporated is important. NorthWes has talked to me about "Errors and Omissions" insurance that can be obtained easily as a rider on homeowners' insurance policies to offset some of that risk. I haven't hand time to research it yet, but perhaps others with nonprofit experience can bring their insight to Tuesday's meeting. In my opinion, one of the main impetuses (impeti?) for incorporating is so there really is an organization with specific accountable individuals for land managers to contact and work with if there are issues. Right now, many of the land manager contacts are through work and social relationships which can be awkward if a problem arises. Also, by having specific "go to" people in an organization, a consistent message about what the game entails, how geocachers can help land managers, and quick responses to issues can be achieved. No, there would not be another layer of organization for geocachers to "contend" with. A statewide organization would merely serve as the local face of geocaching to land managers and the community as a whole. Membership would be voluntary. However, if membership dues are collected, I could see "members only" pins, patches, or other goodies being distributed. Beyond a standard group to interact with land managers, there are no preconceived notions of what an organization would look like. The purpose of Tuesday's meetings is to start fleshing out what an incorporated GAK! organization would look like, so now is folks' opportunity to have their voices heard. To get ideas about how two of the finest geocaching organizations operate, check out the links in one of my earlier posts in this thread for Washington and Michigan. Yes on the first point. On the second point, I'm not certain I support purchasing Premium Memberships for land managers, but if it buys ongoing good will, it's a cheap price to pay. The Chugach State Park permit cost $25, which, in my opinion without an understanding of their administrative and fiscal processes, could be applied to a Premium Membership. I would hope the standard geocaching.com disclaimer disperses any liability. However, it's my understanding that the waiver one signs when white water rafting, bungee jumping, etc., doesn't really mean much if something bad happens and an individual wants to sue someone. Yes, CITO has gone a long way toward placing geocaching in good standing with the Municipality of Anchorage. This good standing has spilled over into a good relationship with the BLM which spilled over into a better relationship with Chugach Stage Park. A little good will has gone a long way in this region. The land managers from various entities talk to each other and good news gets around. Social trails are trails that appear in the woods as people consistently cover the same ground to go to a specific locale (geocache, viewpoint, etc.).
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Post by ladybugkids on Sept 13, 2008 8:50:00 GMT -9
Point is - ... purchasing premium memberships for park managers so they can monitor geocaching land use ... Open an account... publish the Bank/Account number... allow for donations. Or some other method to donate Fund$ for this type of community support. Proceeds from the sale of GAK! coin and pins have been used to cover the costs of blanket permits, etc. Selling geobling isn't real lucrative given the amount of time it takes to set up the projects and process the orders, but it has resulted in some money to help with these expenses geocachers would otherwise pay out of their own pockets.
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Post by li1gray on Sept 13, 2008 13:13:45 GMT -9
Reading the entries so far after returning from up on the Dalton Hwy seems things have been preety interesting. I am hoping to be able to make the event cache on the 16 but I work night shift so not so sure I will be able to make it. lots of interesting ideas going around I look forward to reading or hearing more.
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Broccili
Bronze Cacher
Vehicle TB212QR "Powerstroke"
Posts: 67
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Post by Broccili on Sept 13, 2008 17:35:23 GMT -9
Thanks for all the replies. I believe most of my questions have been answered.
I would like to attend the meeting, however I don't leave work until 6pm... got to work harder on my time travel (grin). We'll see!
Thanks again for the quick responses!
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Post by FrostG1anT on Sept 14, 2008 1:34:21 GMT -9
I would like to attend the meeting, however I don't leave work until 6pm... We should be at Guido's for a while. It is a restaurant, we will be having dinner. It starts at 6:00, but has no set finish time. Come out and express your opinion. We value everyone's input.
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Post by ladybugkids on Oct 13, 2009 21:03:17 GMT -9
Effective 12 October 2009, the Chugach State Park permit number is:09-076 Please use this permit number on all new caches placed in Chugach State Park. The permit is valid through December 31, 2010. A copy of the permit may be downloaded from the GeocacheAlaska! Land Manager Contact webpage. Many thanks to tinman4x who used part of a day off from work to meet with a Chugach State Park ranger to renew the permit!!! Thanks, too, to Oleruns, who provided the comprehensive list of Chugach State Park geocaches and associated maps.
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Post by ladybugkids on Jan 28, 2011 21:33:35 GMT -9
Effective today, the 2011 Chugach State Park Permit number is 11-007. Please place this number on all cache containers you place in Chugach State Park and on your cache page to facilitate having your cache(s) quickly published. Kudos to Cavyguy, Blazingpathways, Tomanoble, and Caprahircus for working together to make it happen. It wasn't just a matter of showing up a the park office...a lot of work had to be done to provide a map of all the caches in Chugach State Park along with other informatoin. The permit is valid until 12/31/2011. A copy of the permit is attached to this post...er, nevermind...even zipped it was 2.7KB too large to attach. You may therefore find a downloadable copy of the permit on the GeocacheAlaska! Land Manager webpage.
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Post by tomanoble on Jan 29, 2011 20:39:12 GMT -9
Thanks for all the work to get the new permit and keep one of our premier playgrounds available.
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