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Post by Forum Admin on Oct 22, 2006 11:53:31 GMT -9
This was posted in another thread by Ladybug Kids and belongs here too
Wigi brings up a good point that all cachers should be aware of due to how differently many Alaskan trails are used season to season. It sounds like Wigi was plenty late in the season to avoid all but the most avid skier, but most of them were probably in the White Mountains enjoying late season snow.
Wigi mentioned that there were "some interesting issues about some of the caches in that area," the the issues there aren't any different than the issues with a lot of caches in other areas, too. The UAF ski and Birch Hill ski trails in Fairbanks are pretty clearly signed about when foot traffic is not desired. The local skiers (like Anchorate skiers), including the Ladybug Kids contribute lots of money to have groomed ski trails and it's a real bummer to find post holes in the trails from people walking on them. The Anchorage ski trails are pretty clearly signed, too, as well as the multi-use trails (like the Tour of Anchorage, Chester Creek, Coastal Trail, Ruth Arcand, etc.) where walking, mountain biking, and horseback riding are also okay.
All of our cache pages for caches along skiing and mushing trails clearly state that people should honor the rules in effect for the season. We also provide links to online trail maps that are useful for identifying the routes to caches. UAF in particular has winter walking trails for people and dogs, so folks don't have to walk on the ski trails to access some of the caches. Just as a cacher wouldn't run a 4-wheeler down a walking only trail, it is good etiquette for cachers not to walk on ski trails during the posted off limits months. If in doubt, visit your local nordic ski club's website.
Oleruns is right...imagine the scenario of a skier coming upon geocachers walking on the ski trails in Kincaid or on the Hillside. The skier asks the geocachers what they are doing. The geocachers tell them they are geocaching. The skier reports the geocachers to the Municipality of Anchorage (MOA). MOA, which to date has been VERY supportive of geocaching on MOA parklands now sees a conflict so they shut down geocaching. Geocachers could protest to MOA, but the nordic skiers in Anchorage (and Fairbanks) are VERY organized, greatly outnumber geocachers and are used to vigorously defending the ski trails. I'd almost bet my next paycheck that geocaching would lose.
The lower the impact we have on ANY land where we cache, the more likely we will be allowed to continue to play the game there.
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Post by NorthWes on Oct 30, 2006 15:52:34 GMT -9
Right on, scobey!
Lots of money & sweat equity is invested by the nordic ski clubs in our communities to build & maintain & then groom (once enough snow falls) our ski trails. Absolutely stay off groomed trails!
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Post by Malcore on Oct 30, 2006 19:03:10 GMT -9
ok, got a couple questions. Should we not do caches that are along the ski trails at all? or can we walk beside the trails? If no, what would you suggest for us poor people as a starter ski set? It has been many years sence I tried cross country skiing and I dought I would be doing much, other then going after caches.
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Post by oleruns on Oct 30, 2006 20:19:55 GMT -9
At some point you'll have to cross the ski trail if you try to walk to the cache as all the ski trails almost double back on themselves and it's not worth the blackeye to geocaching to take a chance. I have made the error before! I was running on a multi use trail and got twisted around when I didn't know the trails that well and ended up on a ski trail on hillside. I was reminded many times "This is a ski trail *&^*" So I ended up going through the woods to get back to where I could run on the trails again. I was wrong, what do you do? I can't blame them for being upset. I have run on a couple in the past after a rain, thaw hard freeze when you could drive a truck on the ice and nobody said a word but I don't think I would do it now. All you need is one big posthole. plus, that was as a runner not a geocacher. -Ole
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Post by ladybugkids on Oct 30, 2006 22:45:55 GMT -9
ok, got a couple questions. Should we not do caches that are along the ski trails at all? or can we walk beside the trails? If no, what would you suggest for us poor people as a starter ski set? It has been many years sence I tried cross country skiing and I dought I would be doing much, other then going after caches. There really aren't that many trails that are ski only. Unless things have changed since I last lived in Anchorage (left in 1998), Kincaid, Hillside, APU, Bartlett, Russian Jack and the trails by Chugiak HS are the only skier only trails. Chester Creek, Campbell Creek, Coastal Trail, Tour of Anchorage, Arcand Park, Moose Meadow, Rover's Run, and many, many others are designated multiuse trails, so the vast majority of the Anchorage bowl is nonrestricted during the winter. Personally, I'd just let a cache wait until spring if it's hidden along a ski trail and I didn't have a means to ski to it. With the exception of the caches in Kincaid Park and a few on Hillside, there just aren't that many caches that require only ski trail access. For those who have been yelled at by skiers, I apologize on behalf of the skiing community. Like Oleruns' situation, one can accidently find themselves in an unintentionally awkward spot. Yelling at someone is an intentional wrong that certainly doesn't improve skiers' standing in the community.
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Post by Malcore on Oct 31, 2006 17:39:16 GMT -9
Well after going and finding the new cache that just came out today I realized that I needed to go buy some good boots, so I stopped off at REI and got a pair. While there I checked into what it would cost for a beginner set of ski's and it looks like it would be around $300, so if any caches come out that are in a ski only area it looks like I will be taking Ladybugkids advice and wait till next spring to go get them. I can't talk my self into spending that kind of money with what little I would use the ski's.
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Post by oleruns on Oct 31, 2006 17:51:54 GMT -9
Try the ski swaps and get an old pair.
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Post by ladybugkids on Oct 31, 2006 17:53:01 GMT -9
The West Valley HS team just had their ski swap last weekend. There are usually several such events in Anchorage each fall where it should be possible to pick up used gear for $100-$150. UAA's event was last weekend, but the Nordic Skiing Association of Anchorage's Swap is coming up on Saturday, November 4, in Kincaid Park. Be sure to get there before the doors open because the best gear goes FAST!!! UAA and APU used to have events, too, but I've lost track of them.
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Post by NorthWes on Nov 4, 2006 10:36:15 GMT -9
REMINDER - as Ladybug Kids noted the NSAA ski swap is today at 4pm! The NorthWes family chipped in $150 as trail supporters - not JUST for grooming but for trail development and maintainence throughout the year... plus we get cool trail pins & car decals... The ski folks are awesome adjuncts to 'caching as they help keep the parks in 'playable' condition.
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Post by omgcrew on Dec 8, 2006 21:19:51 GMT -9
If there are no signs stating skiers only are they OK to walk on?
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Post by ladybugkids on Dec 8, 2006 22:33:39 GMT -9
If there are no signs stating skiers only are they OK to walk on? That's a tough call since not every trailhead is signed. The Nordic Skiing Association of Anchorage has a Trail FAQ page that explains a lot of the issues with foot traffic on groomed ski trails. This Hillside Trail Map depicts ski only and multi-use trails. This link provides an example of volunteer work performed by Anchorage area skiers to improve the trails. The Trail History page describes development of many of the trail systems around Anchorage. That kind of sweat equity investment coupled with trail grooming donations of $75-$150 or more per family per year is why Nordic skiers are so protective about the groomed trails. Different, but related topic...while looking for a specific list of multi-use trails where walking would be all right, I found a link to the Municipality of Anchorage Trail System.
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Post by NorthWes on Dec 9, 2006 8:39:49 GMT -9
With the 48 degree temps at 10pm last night at Kincaid Park, who knows if they'll have enough snow to ski on? It's slushing out right now, with a forecast of 1-3 inches (and it's showing it on the radar, sweeping out of Turnagain Arm). Point being, if they groom the trails and manage to hold it thru this mess, the trail users are gonna really hate anyone who goes out and puts postholes via foot traffic in the soft groomed stuff before it rehardens into a base surface. Check the master map carefully, and if in doubt strap on snowshoes and parallel the trail (it's great exercise - and I need it myself! )
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Post by knappling on Dec 9, 2006 15:49:28 GMT -9
I agree, I don't think that walking on the trails at Kincaid would be a good idea. At the race today they were worn down to the ground on the sides.
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Post by omgcrew on Dec 12, 2006 13:06:02 GMT -9
Check the master map carefully, and if in doubt strap on snowshoes and parallel the trail (it's great exercise - and I need it myself! ) Is there an online location to this master map? I am not asking to go out stomping on the trails. I am just curious to which trails are dedicated to ski only. I know Kincaid and the hill side locations are. But where I put tour de Fairbanks the trails were groomed but there were no signs and obvious foot traffic everywhere. I also have no problems skiing as I got my first set of skis. But I really suck and most trails are out of my league. If the grounds not flat I will be flat on the ground. Or if there is turns involved. Just how are you supposed to turn these @!*#$ things?
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Post by ladybugkids on Dec 12, 2006 19:29:38 GMT -9
I looked pretty hard for a "master" map and couldn't find one. I did provide a link above to the Hillside map that indicates the multi-use trails.
The corridor trails like Chester Creek, Tour of Anchorage (from Service HS to Tudor Road), Campbell Creek, and Coastal Trail are groomed for skiing, but they are multiuse and are used by people on foot and mountain bikes. Cachers on foot on these trails shouldn't get the evil eye from skiers like they would on the Hillside, Russian Jack, APU, Kincaid, and some other more purely "Nordic" trails.
As to how to you turn those straight skinny sticks? If you are trying to ski on the ice I suspect is on the trails after last weekend's major thaw, I can't help you there short of recommending a metal edged touring ski.
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Post by NorthWes on Dec 13, 2006 9:08:39 GMT -9
Here's the 'portal' to the two different sets of trail maps the City has available... the pdf map 'book' is easier to use; the other one is an interactive GIS map system that doesn't interface with my Netscape browser, but that contains a fascinating amount of information. Note that these don't show multi-use vs groomed status - that has to be gleaned from the other link to the Nordic Ski Assn of Anchorage (NSAA) Groomed Trails report (often updated daily). City maps: munimaps.muni.org/trails/reference.htmNSAA Groomed Trails report: www.anchoragenordicski.com/Trails/groomingupdate.htm NSAA: www.anchoragenordicski.com/index.htmThe main NSAA website has lots of valuable trail info (found on the link to "TRAILS AND GROOMING' on the left-hand column of the site's home page), including those terrific Tour of Anchorage maps you've seen linked-to elsewhere in these forums. It's a worthy group to support via membership (the NorthWes household supports them at the $150/yr level of membership) as they're the primary trail builder/maintenance group for year-round use in the Anchorage Bowl.
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Post by ladybugkids on Dec 27, 2009 9:28:59 GMT -9
Bump to add map resources and remind folks not to walk on the groomed "ski only" trails during the ski season. Nordic Ski Association of Anchorage Trail page.Cross Country Alaska Ski Trail ReportsNote on Kincaid Park trails this time of year...the only multi-use trails out there are the bike trail from the park entrance to the Chalet and the Coastal Trail. The dune trails are not groomed for skiing nor is the beach, so those areas are open to foot traffic. There are lots of other good links earlier in this thread.
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Post by ladybugkids on Feb 7, 2010 19:54:20 GMT -9
Folks, a good friend of mine had her mushing race significantly affected today after running into a pair of snowshoers who were on the mushing trails during the ExxonMobil Limited race. Her sled was broken, but fortunately neither driver nor dogs were injured and she was able to finish the race after losing a big chunk of time. The mushers pay entry fees and compete for cash prizes and prestige (she had a one minute lead after the first day and ended up in second place, six seconds behind the eventual winnter) and this incident is a most unfortunate example of what can happen when people stray onto designated use trails at the wrong time. Dog teams travel silently at speeds exceeding 20 mph. The string of a larger team is long enough the musher can't see his/her lead dogs around the corner, so unexpected people are a real hazard. If you choose to pursue the caches accessed via the mushing trails, please go very early or very late in the day, avoiding the nominal hours of 10 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. An Alaska Sled Dog Racing Association (ASDRA) race schedule may be found here[/url] and a mushing trail map may be found here.I posted a note on most (but most likely not all) caches that I believe the primary access point is via a mushing trail. Notable exceptions I did not flag are caches to the west and north of the BLM airstrip that have multiple access points, including the mushing trails. The new snow coupled with the the upcoming Championship races (including Fur Rondy) will have the mushers out in force on the mushing trails, mostly between 10:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m., but one should be alert at all times when traversing a designated use trail.
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Post by omgcrew on Feb 7, 2010 21:48:53 GMT -9
I am going to delete your post on my cache page as my cache is on a multi use trail. City residents pay lots of money to have trails developed for everyones use.
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Post by ladybugkids on Feb 7, 2010 22:39:36 GMT -9
I am going to delete your post on my cache page as my cache is on a multi use trail. City residents pay lots of money to have trails developed for everyones use. I wish you didn't feel that way. I agree that access to "A Park for Dogs" can be done via a paved bike/groomed ski/multi-use trail from the east or west. However, access can also be had by parking at Tozier Track or other locations and approaching via one of several mushing trails in the area. Blazingpathways took my posts in a more "constructive" light and modified her cache pages to highlight the potential hazard, and pointed out one her caches I'd missed. Tex_ak expressed concern that those who were involved were geocachers (I don't believe they were unless they are late logging their activity in the area). Deke Rivers temporarily disabled his caches near mushing trails (which was not my desired outcome). My notes to cache pages that have the possibility of being accessed via mushing trails are meant to be informative, not inflammatory or cache police-like, because eight to nine months of the year it can be open season on the mushing trails. I posted because I care about the people and the dogs and don't want caching to get a bad name because someone makes a high stakes blunder into a dog team out there. There have been a lot of skier/snow shoer/walker/mountain biker "incursions" reported on the the mushing trails this season. It's not a safe situation to have non-mushers traveling in various directions on mushing trails during training and racing times. The musher, the dogs, and the snow shoers all could get hurt in an incident. The mushing trails were developed and are maintained by the Alaska Sled Dog Racing Association (ASDRA) on a combination of Municipality of Anchorage (MOA) and BLM land. MOA and BLM applied the "mushing only" designation to the trails to safely separate disparate trail user groups. For the record, I am not a member nor have I ever been a member of ASDRA, but I have and do mush and have a first-hand understanding of the hazards. At least I got a first out of this...I've never before had a log deleted .
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Post by Forum Admin on Feb 11, 2010 10:55:48 GMT -9
I am going to delete your post on my cache page as my cache is on a multi use trail. City residents pay lots of money to have trails developed for everyones use. An unfortunate attitude!
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Post by ladybugkids on Dec 7, 2010 17:40:58 GMT -9
This just posted to the www.crosscountryalaska.org trail reports: "Please be aware that the Alaska Sled Dog and Racing Association, ASDRA, is now grooming the sled dog trails off Tudor Rd. and into Far North Bicentennial Park, BLM Campbell Tract area. Dog teams will be using these trails for the remainder of the winter. If you are uncertain of the designation of the trail you are using please check the trail map at ASDRA website or go to the BLM Campbell Tract website for more info. There is also a public service announcement about trail safety and dog teams on the ASDRA website."
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Post by NorthWes on Dec 14, 2010 12:30:56 GMT -9
This is BLM's Winter Trail Etiquette Poster for 2010-2011, sent to me by Jorjena Daly (BLM Outdoor Rec Planner for the Campbell Tract). BLM has asked geocachers to pay particular attention to the notices to respect (i.e. - stay off) designated Dog Mushing Only trails, and to use EXTREME caution in crossing Dog Mushing trails. The Dog Mushing Trails are not multi-use in winter, and are maintained by mushing organizations at their own cost under permit from the BLM strictly for use as dog mushing trails. More than two dozen signs are posted at intersections and trailheads warning trail users of the winter trail restrictions on designated dog mushing trails, and of the hazards which occur when others attempt to use designated dog mushing trails for winter travel. Trail user groups have met to develop these winter trail etiquette rules as described on this poster, and are asking all users to abide by them. Enforcement of these rules occurs through action of the BLM Ranger and the Anchorage Police Dept, when necessary (as noted on the poster). Please help keep our access open to these areas by following the winter trail etiquette rules as you're geocaching on the BLM Campbell Tract and the Far North Bicentennial Park.
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Post by caprahircus on Dec 14, 2010 18:32:41 GMT -9
Very nicely laid out,
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Post by NorthWes on Dec 15, 2010 15:56:11 GMT -9
This reflective 7" x 7" sign (or its larger 14" x 10" version) will give you plenty of warning that you're either on or about to enter a Dog Mushing Only trail - keep out if you encounter these signs, and find a different route to make your find during the winter snow season in BLM Campbell Tract/Far North Bicentennial Park!
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Post by ladybugkids on Dec 27, 2012 8:38:41 GMT -9
Bumping this thread because with the latest snowfall, the Nordic skiing and Dog Mushing trails are now being groomed.
Please respect the wintertime single user (ski only or dog team only) designations of the trails all across Alaska.
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Post by fuzzybelly on Dec 28, 2012 8:36:27 GMT -9
I second the motion on being careful on the dog sled trails. I have two caches behind the ball fields on Martin Luther King; Sugar....spoiled sweet, and TheCheapSeats. And a few more have joined them in this beautiful area. Dog trails run all over this area so Please try to stay of the trails. Even a post hole from our boot can be a danger to the running dogs if they where to step in it. Snowshoes a few paces off the trail would be perfect. I can't wait to go get those new caches
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Post by NorthWes on Dec 17, 2014 13:40:29 GMT -9
Bumping this thread because with the latest snowfall, the Nordic skiing and Dog Mushing trails are now being groomed. Please respect the wintertime single user (ski only or dog team only) designations of the trails all across Alaska. We may be lacking snow right now - but it's good to bump this thread up on the reading list. Check out the various links in this thread to stay current on what trails are designated for special user groups in the winter - it's the courteous and safe thing to do!
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Post by fuzzybelly on Dec 17, 2014 20:07:03 GMT -9
Great idea bumping this one NW.
Alaskan Rule #1. Walking on the two grooved ski tracks on a path is a no no. That's the first rule right before, don't eat yellow snow.
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Post by SSO JOAT on Dec 17, 2014 20:28:39 GMT -9
This is good info to put on the related links page on our website so it is in one easy access location that we can link to FB and Twitter feeds periodically through the winter. I'll put that on my website maint list for this week.
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